Administrative demotion due to PT failures

Discussion in 'Air Force Forum' started by Smeh, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. Smeh

    Smeh New Member

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    Hi. I am posting here because I need to process my situation with maybe someone out there who has been through a similar situation.

    A little background. I am currently a SrA (effective June 19,2012 due to administrative demotion, before that I was a SSgt for 5 years and was waiting for today to find out if I made tech).
    I tested in March and failed the run portion by 1min, I maxed out everything else on the PT test, making it my 3rd failure in 24 months. I could not meet the time for the run portion because the pain in my back was so great, I then went to my PCM the next day and received a profile for pulling a back muscle.
    I received a LOR about 2 weeks later, after a medical review with my previous PCM (I requested to switch PCM, I will explain why later) where he found nothing wrong with me.
    Last week of May, I was told that my Unit Cc had initiated the process to demote me to SrA. June 19th, I was demoted. I am currently appealing it for medical reasons.
    Here is where my previous PCM comes into play.
    1. I have been going to him with back, feet and lung issues for 2 years now and hes always chalked it up to fatigue or pulling a back muscle. <-- my disclaimer here is that, yes I know I should have seeked a second option, but I did not.
    2. Having since switched PCMs, on my first visit with him, he sent me to 3 referrals because he felt I had really bad issues.
    3. Referral Doctors diagnosed me with, Plantar fasciitis in the arches of my feet,Traumatic Arthritis in my feet, degenerative back muscle spams and issues, I am still waiting for the lung specialist to see if I have asthma.

    My issue is this, Yes, I should have sought a second opinion but why can't the CC (unit and squadron), according to AFI 36-2502 6.1.5. When appropriate, give Airmen an opportunity to overcome their deficiencies before demotion action is initiated. Commanders should maintain supporting documentation of all rehabilitation and probationary actions.

    Is it too unreasonable of me to want some leniency here ?

    Should also add that if my appeal is denied, I am up for high year tenure and will probably not be able to test for staff the next cycle due to a referral EPR.
    Not to mention the financial set backs for me.

    Please help
    klamsnacks likes this.
  2. Ivette

    Ivette PEB Forum Regular Member

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    Sorry to hear about your tough times dealing with a CoC that lacks common sense. I would go to legal to seek advice, also see the patient advocate an initiate a complaint against your previous PCM. These steps will ensure you have enough documentation to fight your appeal. Don't worry about the higher of tenure if a medical condition is the cause your issues 9 times out of 10 the medical condition will allow you to extend. In the meantime, I can't stress this enough "GET A PROFILE ASAP" to avoid further punishments for PT failure. Take care, hope it all works out...
  3. klamsnacks

    klamsnacks PEB Forum Regular Member

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    As Ivette said, I too am really sorry to about your medical concerns and your CC's reaction to applied force shaping thru the use of Fitness Assessment. Well it would be to long and much information here to post again but the skinny of it is, my situation is almost exact to yours minus the medical conditions. My back is my main issue and I had to have it fused in August of 2011. You can click my name and look at posts' i've mentioned many of times the status of Administrative Action / Demotions / and Separations. And how basically there is NO reference in any AFI that explicity details how to serve said Admin. Action against someone, when they are under MEB status for the condition you are being punished for.

    My case, April 2011- Demotion Action was initiated (SSgt - SrA) and made final in middle June, appeal lost in July. Had surgery in August. My condition had failed to be identified, and my PCM was un sympothetic, he felt I should be dieting (I WAS had food record and everything) but my administrative punishment was not his concern, I needed to work them out on my own with my CoC.
    Flash forward a year, same PCM - SAME CC, slightly different CoC, almost to the day April 2012 notified of another demotion action again for failed PT tests (8 at the time up to 9 or 10 now in a row of failed PT tests DUE TO MY CONDITION). This time from SrA now to A1C, well made official that it was being forwarded to demotion authority at the end of May 2012, and I received my IPEB findings on 7 June 2012. Signed, agreed, all that, and my CC wouldn't allow them into the demotion package. His belief was that "being found unfit for duty due to physical disability didn't not have any relevance in the Demotion Authorities determination of my demotion for failed Fitness Assessments." Yes nearly an exact quote, i've had it repeated to me and my ADC twice now by my shirt for clarification. Any ways, base legal was fed up with the case, so made us approach my CC again for an extension to add rebuttal documents, and make him sign concur/non-concur letter. Which he did, NOT concur or allow in this case, extra time. But the letter had all the information on it we wanted in minus the attachments of the signed copies, they were referenced thou, so whatever. Still a SrA, awaiting on DA to rule, and the SeCAF to rule as well since I'm also in a dual action case of separation due to pt fails as well as of Nov 2011, within days my MEB was initiated. And......breath.....

    Ivette's advice was spot on, I only add the following start documenting everything, make yourself an MFR and if it's of major importance, have someone sign it additionally as a witness if you feel you must. That way it's in your possession when you decide to fight this at a later date. Make copies of everything, and digital copies if possible. Store these in a couple of places so you always have them.

    My situation is coming to a close, and I "hope" I have a decision from SECAF by August,Sept. SO I can ultimately know what my life is going to be. I do NOT intend to be retired as a SrA either. SSgt was held satisfactory for 2 years until my medical conditions came about. And I had NO paperwork that was bad against me until then, now it's just piled up so thick, I can use it as a door jam. So I'll be fighting once out of the Air Force, as my current CC is blind in regards to my medical conditions, and I think most are using the Fitness Program as their out, there is nothing and I've searched and searched, even contacted one of the main chiefs of medical retention standards, and fitness health oic's who practically right policy for the Air Force on my concerns. They've all given me generalized sympathy but stated time again, they don't write the AFI's, so they couldn't tell me how things can or should be handled. Retired Lt. Col, told me he's unsure how admin. sep/demotions work due to not ever being a CC in his 25 plus year career. Yet authored a document for medical standards retention, stating exactly how and when MEB and Admin Sep should be done, one or the other not one because of the other (ie don't MEB cause someone's failing FA). Good Luck, stay strong (mentally) and don't do anything that hurts or worsens your condition. Your stripe while it sucks, you will probably get it back once the grade determination portion is done by secaf, but thats down the road abit.

    v/r
    Klam
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  4. Smeh

    Smeh New Member

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    thanks for getting back to me. I have received a no walk no run no prolonged standing profile from my new PCM, its somewhere in the process of being transferred from the hospital to the HAWC, but god know how long that will take.
    I have received council from ADC and I am going to send my appeal packet to the base cc. He is fair and a just man, I just hope he reads my appeal package. I have over 9 character statements, statements from all m Drs stating that while they cannot back date the issues, all my issues that have been diagnosed so far has prevented or at least hindered me from passing my PT tests.
    Also, the latest AFI for fitness standards ( I forget the #, read too many AFIs recently lol) states that Administrative demotion is NOT the recommended course of action for 3rd PT fail in 24 months, only 4th+, but as always, theres that little disclaimer saying that its ultimately the Cc's discretion.

    I am sorry for your situation too Klamsnacks and thank you Ivette.
  5. Smeh

    Smeh New Member

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    also, Klamsnacks, could you please explain the Secaf - grade determination part? I dont know how that works :) TIA
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  6. klamsnacks

    klamsnacks PEB Forum Regular Member

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    I dont consider myself to be a subject matter expert in SECAF process, but the way I read it and it seems pretty cut and dry. Once you have a dual action process going. (MEB and Admin Sep. in this example) The SECAF has to rule on one of those two choices. Once this is done, and you are being removed from active duty and served in a higher grade than currently held, the SECAF also is required to do a Grade Determination. This is accomplished by submitting a form with highest grade held satisfactorly. So......they make a decision, and what rank to retire you at if differing from current. This decsion from my understanding is appealable, or you could attempt to have your PT scores thrown out as I am, thru the AfBCMR process, and any other Administrative Punishment, if you can prove your case to them. I intend this route but only once I'm fully removed from Active Duty, as I'm still being requried to test for PT and still reprimanded under failure to meet fitness standards, so I've got a lot of information I wish to have purged, and IF this information is purgred then I would never have lost my rank(or two) to begin with.

    Keep me updated!
    v/r
    Klam
  7. klamsnacks

    klamsnacks PEB Forum Regular Member

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    No profile except a complete Composite Limiting one will save you from an AC measurement, my Profile is do absolutely nothing as well, dont lift more than 10 lbs, no walking more than 1/10 of mile, no sitting/standing for 30 minutes, no driving GOV's (POV's are apparently no problem) and limited to 4 hr duty days. Still being AC tested even after physicians documentation to my CC about the Meds I'm on and side effects of weight gain due to inactivity. PCM agrees with dieting your way to passing and not his fault, it's mine that my food records indicated diet is not working. You are correct, but this is ALL up to CC discression, so it sounds like my CC - his determination is Admin Sep vs find out what's really wrong, then once finding out, ignore my Dr's recommendations for treatment. My CC also, passed through the IG complaint I filed, with no wrong doing noted, I spoke with everyone I put down on my complaint and only my Shirt stated he was contacted and on the friday I received my determinations from the IG complaint. You are correct on the 4 in a 24month period, i'd question and rebuttal that Reg identifier. Per AFI xxx para xxx states demotion usage for 4 not 3. Don't quote me on if it's good to have or not, but i'd do it if it were me. And Atlease outline that proper process is for 4, you just don't want to come across as poking at your CC was the line i was repeatedly told by my ADC, till this shit finally hit the fan and my CC showed he was not just doing this cause the AFI states he can, that it appears almost vindictive in nature, then my rebuttals used words like As I previously notified you in the rebuttal to the last Administrative Action X against me in xxJune of 2011, this condition blah blah blah... see where I'm going with this..

    Well, again as I stated earlier, yes they can have some unobjectional thinking issues with current state of Air Force right now. PT Is king and if you're failing for whatever reason, minus in a coma or loss of 2 limbs, you should be doing something health orientated. Dieting, while used as a "prescription" may not be enough, but when your diet fails to show any signs of "improvement" you must not be doing it properly. Additionally, with the AFI reference, they did give you an opportunity to over come your deficiencies, you failed PT test 1 and 2 and received a referral EPR, this was your counceling session and opportunity to overcome challenges. ATLEAST that's their reasoning, and they'll stick to it. AGAIN don't get discouraged, if your medical condition is indeed severe enough, things will work out in the end. Even if it takes you fighting it a little, don't sweat the CC stuff, they cannot kick you out till the MEB rulings and all forms of appeals have been exhausted on your part.

    v/r
    Klam
  8. Drez44

    Drez44 PEB Forum Regular Member

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    I have found this thread helpful for several reasons. I am an 18 year TSgt who was denided reenlistment last year on July 12th due to FA failures. You could say I didn't take it well and ended up in a Psyc ward in the local hospital for a week. I was placed on code 37 medical hold pending a medical review board. One month later my CC atempted an admistrative demotion, with I was able to overturn. Last week on July 12th I was notifided by my 1st Sgt this action was going to be taken against me again. For nearly the past year I have been on a zero activity profile and have medical documention for the last ten years of medication causeing signifagent weight gain. I find myself very frusted due to my units selective enforcement of Fit to Fight. This just dosen't pass the common sence test. I'm already in the process of a medical board and will most likely lose my retirement at nineteen years. I feel this action is excessive and may be grounds for an Article 38 action against my CC. I have my apointment with ADC tomarrow. I am seeking the forms thoughts on this.

    V/R
    TSgt D
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  9. Chris1455

    Chris1455 New Member

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    I am a Tech with over 20 years in. In recent years I have had two meniscus surgeries followed by a High Tibial oeseotomy. The third causing me to be bed ridden for a month and on crutches for the next two. This surgery was in January. In July I had a setback and broke some screws in my leg and had to go back on crutches. Since I am AC measurement only I failed my third PT test last week. My waist has expanded due to inactivity but I have made progress from my last test. Well, I already have a retirement date and I am within 62 days of starting terminal leave. My CC wants to pull my stripe now before retirement. ADC says If I can retire with-in 4 months of the Demotion notice I can keep my stripe. I am 20 days outside that window. It seems they are set on taking my stripe. I believe I will still retire a Tech but am not 100% sure. It seems CC's do not even care about medical issues. It's black and white to them, pass or fail. I have over 20 years of good service with never as much as an LOC and this is what they want to do to me with 62 days left. I am so stressed out at a time I should be worrying about transitioning. I am so fed up.
  10. Dfree454

    Dfree454 PEB Forum Regular Member

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    TSgt Friend of mine is going through nearly the same thing what are you worried about the stripe or the money? Money wise nothing will really change. He has already been demoted to Staff, and he has 1.5 years left until he can retire. ADC did the math for him and it’s only a $65 a month difference.
    Is this going to start an MEB?

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