Rank reduction for PT fails During MEB and on profile exempting everything but Waist

Discussion in 'Separations for Failure to Meet Standards (PT, Bod' started by gmcjimmy88, Jun 9, 2011.

  1. gmcjimmy88

    gmcjimmy88 PEB Forum Regular Member

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    I have many PT fails due to my restrictions. I am only able to do the waist measurement which I fail. My waist measurements has increased roughly 1/2 inch every 2 or 3 tests over the past 4-5 years. I am awaiting the Secretary of the Air Force reveiw of my MEB package. My command is threatening the loss of a stripe becuase of my PT fails. I know they cannot seperate and I think they are trying to force me to accept the original 20% offer which seems low after 3 surgeries and no improvement. Is there any legal stance to keep my rank or are they within their rights to take it? Any help would great. Thanks.
  2. Jason Perry

    Jason Perry Site Founder Staff Member PEB Forum Veteran

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    Rank reduction for PT fails During MEB and on profile exempting everything but Wa

    First, I would challenge the administrative demotion action. If that does not work, your grade on retirement may still be your highest held grade:

    AFI 36-3212:

    5.15. Grade on Retirement. Unless entitled to a higher retired grade under some other provision of law, members permanently retired for disability or placed on the TDRL retire in the highest of the following grades (10 U.S.C. 1372):
    5.15.1. Grade in Which Serving. The grade in which the member is serving on the date placed on the TDRL or on the date permanently retired for disability.
    5.15.2. Higher Reserve Grade. The Reserve grade the member held at time of retirement if it is higher than the grade in which serving on active duty. The Reserve grade must be a valid USAFR or ANG grade that is still in effect at the time of retirement.
    5.15.3. Higher Grade. A higher grade in which the member served satisfactorily on active duty, as determined by the SAF (see Table 4.1, line 5). Service in a higher grade is usually satisfactory unless the higher grade was terminated for cause (except in cases where the member received an honorable discharge in that higher grade during a previous period of service and had held the grade for a period of 6 months or more); information in the member's service record clearly supports the conclusion that the member would have been discharged or demoted for cause at the time he or she held the higher grade; or member served on active duty in higher commissioned grade for less than 6 months.
    5.15.4. Members who are retired on or after 23 Sep 96, may be retired in the regular or reserve grade to which they had been selected and would have been promoted, had it not been for the physical disability for which they were retired. (10 U.S.C. 1372 was amended effective 23 Sep 96.)
    5.16. Grade on Discharge. The discharge grade will be the higher of the following:
    5.16.1. Grade in Which Serving. The grade in which the member is serving at the time of discharge.
    5.16.2. Higher Grade Determined by SAF. A grade in which the member served satisfactorily on active duty, as determined by the SAF, pursuant to 10 U.S.C. 1212 (see Table 4.1, line 5).
  3. jdjohnson

    jdjohnson PEB Forum Veteran

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    Jason,

    I may be in the same boat shortly with 4 Air Force PT failures and I'm waist only. I'm also in the MEB process. Anyways you said in your first sentence to fight admin. demotion. Do you have any advice or maybe AFI's that would help the fight.
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  4. hawkdrivermtp

    hawkdrivermtp PEB Forum Veteran

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    I cannot believe how many people are being punished during their MEB/PEB's. It almost seems unethical to demote an individual who is unable to perform PT, but expect them to not gain weight. Instead they want them to eat less. Some people have different metabolisms and the only way to reduce weight gain is through cardio. Also, a lot of the meds prescribed clearly describe weight gain as a side affect. The combination of no PT, medications, and the illness or disability together should be enough to make a change to the regs with the stipulation of a time period after a fit with a RTD finding, require the service member to meet APFT, height, weight and tape measurement standards. I guess that would be to easy though.

    From my experience, I haven't taken a PT test for 4 years due to my profile, I never failed ht&wt, and my current commander told me months ago that I wouldn't be given a PT test or ht&wt or OER unless for some reason I really wanted one. But every commander is different and some just seem to have no consideration. I would definitely involve JAG and bring up these points and maybe council can convince your CO to withdraw the recommendation.
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  5. Jeremy Pretty

    Jeremy Pretty PEB Forum Veteran

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    Its the Air Force. They are retarded when it comes to the PT thing and people in med boards or profiles. Its sad rather.
  6. Dfree454

    Dfree454 PEB Forum Veteran

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    fyi, There is such a thing called a Full Composite DLC which makes you exempt from all portions of the PT test. I am currently on one. However, from what I hear my base is not issuing these Full DLCs anymore. Mine are not permanent, they only last 6 months... The Cheif of Areospace Medicine is the person that wrote mine.
  7. klamsnacks

    klamsnacks PEB Forum Veteran

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    There are none, AFI's that is that aid a member on MEB status, nor Dual Action Cases, I've read them daily for almost a year and a half now, since my situation began, and this process of still having to AC measure for PT test comes strictly out of the new Fitness Standards AFI. There is no exceptions, other than being pregnant. They even removed the abdominal surgery portion. ALTHOUGH, fitness testing is up to the commander in some regards, they can invalidate a test or not have you scheduled for one and tell their boss why, and it can be looked at 2 ways obviously, the beneficial way we all deserve, and the "per the AFI" way, which most of us receive. I'm in the same boat, I have one demotion action completed, and now another one at the Demotion Authority. 10 failed PT tests now in a row, while waiting on the MEB/PEB stuff, and once I finally got my Official Results from the IPEB, and signed for them my CC didn't feel it was relevant to allow me additional documentation added to the Demotion package, as being found unfit didn't pertain to being demoted for failing fitness. LOL WHAT?????? Ok soapbox time over with. Either way, there is unfortunately a black hole in the process, that doesn't state how to treat a Service Member when they're in the MEB/PEB process. I feel it should be a checklist of sorts,

    Is this Administrative Action (LOR, LOA, UIF/CR, Demotion, Separation) directly related to members' current MEB/PEB Status = Yes
    -- Cannot be processed until IPEB/FPEB/SECAF Appeal results are in.

    Is this Administrative Action (LOR, LOA, UIF/CR, Demotion, Separation) directly related to members' current MEB/PEB Status = NO
    -- Demote, process Administrative Action LOR,LOA,UIF/CR Separation, as you normally would.
    **Admin Sep. still goes to SECAF for final disposition with regards to awaiting MEB/PEB findings, anyways in it's current form.
    -Examples of this would be, drinking and driving (DUI) or any other legal punishment that could also be NJP for things not related to the MEB

    While Service Member is on MEB/PEB status, and has yet to receive official disposition, specific fitness standards for testing, and certain duty restrictions as outlined in profile, should not warrant Administrative Punishment, if direct corelation can be made to the medical condition effects the service members ability to perform in any way, and an unfit finding is likely. Reference AF Form 422 and 469 for duty limiting condition report.
    --If Service Member has or is exempt from any portion of the fitness testing, while in MEB status, then total fitness testing exemptions should apply. ---If the Service Member or Commander requests a FA (Fitness Assessment), PCM and CC of MDG (Medical Group) must agree on special waiver to allow. This should not be expected, but leaves open an option for those being boarded for non physical disabling conditions (IE Mental Health issues)

    -- If fit finding (Return to Duty -- RTD) is likely to occur, then FAST TRACK or RILO MEB should be processed instead. FAST TRACK and RILO MEB's are directly used for this manner, when the condition is not considered unfitting and a Return to Duty determination would have been found at the IPEB. This is in accordance with AFI xx.xxxx (There really is one that explains it just cant remember)

    I think personally if these were added to Administrative Action, Enlisted/Officer Promotions and Demotion, Separations, and Fitness Standards or all other AFI's related to the MEB/PEB process then a lot of our headaches would be over. As, I can read them now, and see that there would definitely need more polish on the wordsmithy a bit, and make sure there were no gaps for Malingering and what not, but I mean come on, I'm on limited duty 4 hr days, can't walk, can't sleep, have no job *all office work*, unable to drive on most days, require medication daily, and am really unable to perform any gainful employment what so ever. But I'm failing fitness standards per my CC as a blatant lack of standards with regards to fitness, even after being given additionally more time that most everyone else in the squadron, I've continued to show no improvement, that is borderline dereliction of duty with regards to the Fitness AFI. YEAH his words again not mine. So, because he just is immune to seeing any real picture of the medical condition, I continue to be punished.

    v/r
    Klam

    It seems to me the AFI in regards to fitness is being used as their total force reduction tool, but under the guise of fitness, especially with regards to those of us on MEB/PEB status.

    **One Caveat to this if anyone actually know's how to get an addendum or change made of an AFI let me know as I'll do the leg work, I just don't even know where to begin.
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  8. pittpan2005

    pittpan2005 PEB Forum Veteran

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  9. klamsnacks

    klamsnacks PEB Forum Veteran

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    Pitt-
    My determination isn't to make it fall in line for me...only for those following in the process. And I understand that generally speaking rules and reg's for military services are done at the Pentagon or HQ level. I'm just trying to determine how to go about showing the disparity between them and making them aware (I believe the AF is aware but choosing not to do anything because of new Fitness Standards personally but I'll never get that answer in writing). Right now, I am just looking, who know's maybe all the kicking and screaming I'm doing now will eventually get noticed, but again I doubt it.

    Either way, was just throwing it out there if anyone knew.

    v/r
    Klam
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  10. Clew2012

    Clew2012 PEB Forum Regular Member

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    I totally hear you and it's totally stupid. I was told by my CC that I will take whatever portions of the PT test (AC measurement) regardless of being on profile. And if I fail, I fail and I will accept a referral OPR and any other course of action required. Prior to my medical issues I have NEVER in 9 yrs failed a PT test or come near failing, but I was told to suck it up and deal with it. ZERO sympathy or compassion considering I lost my ability to walk for almost 4.5 months. I was also told after pressing the issue - "to emotionally prepare myself for failure, deal with it, and accept a referral OPR if it comes down to that - it's just a vanity issue." Yes, I have that time stamped and quoted. I'm not bragging but I am not some d-bag officer and have been on the fast track with a squeeky clean record. I was completely distraught when my CC gave this to me as an answer. So I went to my PCM at Flight medicine, the Flight med /CC, and finally to our Medical Group CC and pleaded my case and was able to get a composite waiver (that expires in Oct) to everyone's surprise - even mine. And the funny thing, the Med GP CC was shocked I even needed to take it that far.
    Apparently the AF pt standards have removed any wiggle room for commander's to show any compassion for their folks going through an MEB, meaning no common sense is allowed. It's very sad that the AF implements administrative action against those going through MEBs with legitimate reasons for not being able to pass a PT test. It's also very sad that just going through an MEB makes you suddenly become the black sheep in your sq too and just pushed aside as though you're a nuciance. I digress.

    If I were you, I would (like others on here have replied) fight to get a composite waiver. Do whatever you have to to avoid the admin actions. It's going to be a challenge but there are ways and there is always someone along the way that's willing to help.
  11. pittpan2005

    pittpan2005 PEB Forum Veteran

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    Klam,
    You might want to reach out to Senator Patty Murray and see if she can assist. She was helpful with my issues and now with her being all over the VA and Military for mental health issues she might be inclined to help.
  12. usafaviator

    usafaviator PEB Forum Veteran

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    Sounds like you have a incompetent command. I share many similarities with you, but my command has done nothing but what I have asked them to do and offered to help in any way they could. I had no problems getting PFT waivers (in fact, my flight doc did the work to get them and keeps them current for me). The quote that you stated came from your command would have pissed me off to no end...I assume you are a flyer, and A type personalities don't respond very well to someone telling them to accept defeat. I "sucked up" my issues for over 3 years before they became dangerous and started to intefere with safety of flight and put my crew in danger, and finally had to step forward and admit that I needed to be checked out. I had never failed a PT test in 16 years (at that time in 2010), and ran half marathons on a regular basis.
    I'm glad that you were able to get the waiver, and I hope that you meet zero resistance in getting it updated in October. Just remember that failing PT tests just gives a vendictive command ammo to use against you if they decide that they want to initiate an admin discharge (dual secondary to a fit MEB/PEB finding), so taking the test and areas that are waived could give them what they need.
  13. Dfree454

    Dfree454 PEB Forum Veteran

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    I just wanted to say... "suddenly become the black sheep in your sq".

    You are correct to the "T". I have and many of my SF co-workers have as well. I currently have a FULL COMPOSITE DLC which runs out in Oct. as well. Due to a change in DAWG Chairman I am affraid that I will not be afforded the same oppritunity as I was before. Is this right, no. Is it reality, yes. The AF reality... The only way I can think to get the AFI's DODI's changed is a rally or a few well written Congressional inquiry to the same members... I had a very High Ranking Officer in the MTF tell me that this new PT/IDES/MEB/ETC system is a scam, he knows it, they all know it. However right now no one can stop it...
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  14. klamsnacks

    klamsnacks PEB Forum Veteran

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    Well Composite DLC is out of the question for me when my PCM is on my CC's side and is of the belief that you can still diet and lose enough weight to pass a PT test, he along with all the other PT Gung Ho's out there. I find it sad when someone complains about not being able to pass they're instantly ridiculed by some, with the Suck it up comments. I've had nothing but support from my UFPM's and everyone aware of my situation EXCEPT my CC, and his SCNO, and a few of my supervisors, only now that my latest Supervisor retired and I was CRO'd to a new guy in the squadron am I able to really explain to him hey look here's how it is, you're late in the game, basically let me do my thing and I'll be out of your hair soon!

    OHHHHHHHHHH and for you Flyer / Pilot types out there...

    What's the difference between God and a Fighter Pilot?
    ..
    ...
    ....

















    God Doesn't think he's a Pilot!!

    v/r
    Klam

    yes yes, I know lame, but i've always thought it was funny!
  15. usafaviator

    usafaviator PEB Forum Veteran

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    Klam, I'm gonna have to send you a 5 gallon pail of prop wash and 30 feet of flight line for that joke...;)
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  16. klamsnacks

    klamsnacks PEB Forum Veteran

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    Don't forget a bucket of steam to clean off the paper stretcher with!
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  17. hawkdrivermtp

    hawkdrivermtp PEB Forum Veteran

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    My OERs while undergoing my MEB were fine except I had to be rated at center of mass and not qualified due to my medical conditions. My commander basically had me write my OER, but he changed a lot of it. It sounded fine, no issues really, so I signed it. When my unit deployed, I was put on rear detachment as the S3 for a couple weeks before I quit work all together, but during that time I found a message my prior commander wrote informing my new commander some nasty things about me and how I was unreliable due to having medical appointments, how I couldn't drive during the hours of darkness, which "conveniently" excused me from PT in the mornings and "conveniently" allowed me to leave work before traffic hit in Honolulu. He also mentioned that he thought it odd I have a Harley Davidson because of my eye issues. I'ts called helmet and eye protection and a hard contact lens the size of a nickel. I know people talked but I didn't realize it was from my own command who never once mentioned they had any problems with me being out of work so much. Not only did I undergo multiple eye surgeries that placed me on con leave for over 2 months, I also had con leave for 3 weeks prior to my kindey stone surgery, then of course I was on con leave to recover. I was already going through the MEB so why commanders and senior leaders act this way is beyond me. I don't have issues passing a PT test with an alternate event, however now that I am on rear detachment, and have a great commander, I was given he option to not work and be in a "WTU" without actually being in the WTU. I have no job, no responsibilities, no items signed for, I don't have to PT or take a PT Test and I wont be getting an OER. Now I am sure my years of service, record as a Test Pilot and a senior CW3 played a huge part in all that. Not that it matters now though. I'm just waiting for my orders. Point of my statement is, there are some out there who have no common sense and then there are some who actually do and care for their service members. I got lucky towards the end of my MEB/PEB with a good commander.
  18. klamsnacks

    klamsnacks PEB Forum Veteran

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    Well it's "official" - My first shirt called me tonight *30 Jun 12* at 7:30pm to inform me he had checked his email and that the General (Demotion Approval Authority) had agreed with my CC to demote me yet for the second time. I have my unfit finding back and signed for not appealing the IPEB results, so this is just assinine. I blew up on my shirt for about 40 minutes how this wasn't right, he's like I'm with ya...but I told him no you're not no one in the chain of command is. If Anyone was on my side then this wouldn't have gotten to this point. He's like well there's always the AF Board of Corrections....I again just got angrier and angrier on the phone to the point I apologized and told him I wish he'd just notified me on Monday, especially since No way i could find a seamstress on Sunday, and the fact that this is a bunch of BS yet again, that I'll have to fight now 2 rank reductions. He's like well I wanted to give you some extra time to get your appeal ready. Again, To this I said the appeal, it's the same fucking thing i've been preaching since January 2011 - you know that and so does the CC - whatever I'll see you Monday after my 2 appointments and that'll be around 11am or there after.

    VERY UNFUCKING HAPPY,
    Klam
  19. hawkdrivermtp

    hawkdrivermtp PEB Forum Veteran

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    Really sorry to hear about your bad news. Seems as if your Shirt had your back, he would have fought a little harder for you. One thing I learned while in the military, after gaining rank, a lot goes on behind closed doors. People you think that have your best interests and "back" can turn out to be the very people recommending the very opposite to a commander. I have sat in on many closed meetings or just sitting at a DFAC dining table and have seen this happen over and over. It's almost like what most would call gossip. But again, I am sorry you received such bad news on a Friday evening. Way to enjoy the weekend....
  20. medicalmystery

    medicalmystery PEB Forum Veteran

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    Well, it's sad how some are picked and chosen to "make" tape after failing height and weight requirements. I have seen many Soldiers, not even on profile, with obvious height and weight noncompliance issues "mysteriously" make tape all of sudden at the discretion of the command. Regarding the different metabolisms and current height and weight requirements, the military almost damn near promotes anorexia and other eating disorders for some people just to make those requirements, especially for curvier or shorter women. If you tall, with greater than a slim build, sometimes that can even hurt you on the scale.

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