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CRSC and FERS and NOT waiving military retired pay...

bryanb124

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
Here is the question: Does being awarded CRSC allow you to buy back your military time for the purposes of the FERS retirement system without waiving your Military Retired Pay?

The OPM FERS handbook discusses what types of service are creditable for FERS and under what conditions: https://www.opm.gov/retirement-services/publications-forms/csrsfers-handbook/c022.pdf

This appears to allow one of just two exceptions for crediting military service for FERS without waiving your military retired pay. From the handbook:

Crediting Military Service for FERS When You Are Receiving Military Retired Pay​

You cannot receive credit for any military service in your FERS retirement computation, if you are receiving military retired pay, unless you were awarded the retired pay:

  • Due to a service-connected disability either incurred in combat with an enemy of the United States or caused by an instrumentality of war and incurred in the line of duty during a period of war,
Last piece, is I found this case from the US Merit System Protection Board with regard to someone who had attempted to waive their retired pay to increase their FERS, but was subsequently awarded CRSC and then was able to remove the waiver. https://www.mspb.gov/netsearch/viewdocs.aspx?docnumber=587367&version=589129&application=ACROBAT

I welcome any all thoughts or personal experiences with regard to retirees working for the USG and entitled FERS who are also received CRSC.

Thanks!

Bryan
 

RonG

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Lifetime Supporter
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Here is the question: Does being awarded CRSC allow you to buy back your military time for the purposes of the FERS retirement system without waiving your Military Retired Pay?

Bryan
Hello Bryan,

Full disclosure: I know absolutely nothing about FERS. I have several years experience working with CRSC.

CRSC fact.

CRSC replaces some or all of waived retired pay for approved combat related disabilities. Under no circumstances would a retiree receive CRSC without first waiving retired pay. Even if pigs could fly, it would not result in CRSC being paid without a military retired pay waiver dollar for dollar in the amount of VA compensation.

I will add comments to this thread once I move to my laptop.

Continued:

DoD 7000.14-R Financial Management Regulation Volume 7B, Chapter 63
LINK <----
630403. Entitled to Retired Pay

A. A member must be entitled to retired pay, notwithstanding that such retired pay may be reduced due to receipt of VA disability compensation. A reservist who has not reached the requisite age to receive retired pay (generally age 60) is not eligible to receive CRSC payments. See Chapter 1, subparagraph 010308.F, for when the eligibility age of a reservist will be reduced below 60 years of age and become eligible for retired pay.

B. A member who waives retired pay in order to credit military service for the purposes of establishing eligibility for a civil service retirement, or for any reason other than to receive disability compensation from the VA, is not eligible to receive CRSC payments. A member who combines his military time with his civil service time for the sole purpose of enhancing his civil service retirement may be eligible for CRSC if the member is still eligible to receive military retired pay. Members should consult the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) and Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS) Handbook for Personnel and Payroll Offices for further information on eligibility.

Ron
 
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bryanb124

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
Thanks Ron! I have sent the question up through HR to see what FERS has on the issue. I will share here if I find out more.

Bryan
 

SFC H

Well-Known Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
Here is the question: Does being awarded CRSC allow you to buy back your military time for the purposes of the FERS retirement system without waiving your Military Retired Pay?

The OPM FERS handbook discusses what types of service are creditable for FERS and under what conditions: https://www.opm.gov/retirement-services/publications-forms/csrsfers-handbook/c022.pdf

This appears to allow one of just two exceptions for crediting military service for FERS without waiving your military retired pay. From the handbook:

Crediting Military Service for FERS When You Are Receiving Military Retired Pay​

You cannot receive credit for any military service in your FERS retirement computation, if you are receiving military retired pay, unless you were awarded the retired pay:

  • Due to a service-connected disability either incurred in combat with an enemy of the United States or caused by an instrumentality of war and incurred in the line of duty during a period of war,
Last piece, is I found this case from the US Merit System Protection Board with regard to someone who had attempted to waive their retired pay to increase their FERS, but was subsequently awarded CRSC and then was able to remove the waiver. https://www.mspb.gov/netsearch/viewdocs.aspx?docnumber=587367&version=589129&application=ACROBAT

I welcome any all thoughts or personal experiences with regard to retirees working for the USG and entitled FERS who are also received CRSC.

Thanks!

Bryan
With regards to CRSC, one must have a combat related disability to qualify. Also one must have a combat related military disability retirement to keep both military retirement and FERS retirement.

Any military time after January 1 1957 can be bought and credited to a FERS retirement.
 

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bryanb124

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
SFC H,

My follow up questions are:

1) Does the award of CRSC establish, for the purposes of FERS, a qualifying combat related disability? My letter specifically uses the terminology listed in bullets one and two of the highlighted passage (e.g. Combat-related due to an Instrumentality of War).

2) To your second sentence: How does the Army qualify a retirement as a 'combat related military disability retirement' if not through CRSC?

Thanks for all the feedback! I feel like I am getting a Master's Class in the Dark Arts!

Bryan
 

SFC H

Well-Known Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
SFC H,

My follow up questions are:

1) Does the award of CRSC establish, for the purposes of FERS, a qualifying combat related disability? My letter specifically uses the terminology listed in bullets one and two of the highlighted passage (e.g. Combat-related due to an Instrumentality of War).

2) To your second sentence: How does the Army qualify a retirement as a 'combat related military disability retirement' if not through CRSC?

Thanks for all the feedback! I feel like I am getting a Master's Class in the Dark Arts!

Bryan
1. OPM is the deciding factor for FERS disability retirements, they no longer accept the DA 199 or letter from any organization. You must provide OPM with your medical records and they make the decision.

2. Through LOD’s , service treatment records, areas considered combat zones. The DA 199 will be accepted for qualifying combat related disabilities.
 

bryanb124

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
SFC H,

Thanks...I had to look up the DA 199--that is PEB proceedings. That is not applicable in my case.

So I am still trying to figure out for non-PEB retirees, does the award of CRSC establish a qualifying combat related disability for the purposes of FERS.

Thanks guys!

Bryan
 

SFC H

Well-Known Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
The CRSC would need to be discussed with your HR and OPM conversely. Under the FERS retirement system federal technicians have a public law provision that protects them from lose of military membership due to disabilities incurred during military service. CRSC comes into the picture after the retirement pay is waived.

I have never heard of a CRSC award solely qualifying a member for a FERS disability retirement.

Also the CSRS / FERS handbook in you original post has been updated many times.
 

bryanb124

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
SFC H,

I think I gave you the wrong impression.

I am retired after 25 years active duty. I am not attempting to gain a FERS disability retirement, but to buy my time without waiving retired pay as is listed as an exception in the first bullet of the highlighted passage you attached.

I am attempting to determine if the award of CRSC establishes for the purpose of FERS the ability to buy back my military without waiving my military retired pay.

Does that make sense?

Do you have a link to the most recent update to the CSRS/FERS handbook?

Thanks!

Bryan
 

FmrArmyAvatr

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PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
My PDRL retirement orders from the Army specifically state the combat disability. The key words in the OPM regulation are Here is the excerpt of what my orders say:

Disability is based on injury or disease received in LOD as a direct Result of Armed Conflict or
caused by an instrumentality of war period as defined by law: YES
Disability resulted from a combat related injury as defined in 26 USC 104: YES

This is what I used to have my time count towards leave accrual and to be able to not have to waive my retired pay under FERS. I was medically retired due to combat incurred injuries.

The key words from the OPM regulation are "you were awarded the retired pay: Due to a service-connected disability either incurred in combat..."; meaning you were retired because you had a unfitting combat related service-disability, not retired from a regular 20+ year of active duty AND have combat disabilities (CRSC compensated) .
 

SFC H

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PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
“I am attempting to determine if the award of CRSC establishes for the purpose of FERS the ability to buy back my military without waiving my military retired pay.”

If I understand, you are wanting to know before you buy the time back if it will allow you too keep both retirements, specifically the military because you were awarded CRSC.

1. You get to keep the military retirement and FERS if you do not buy the time back.

2. If the time is bought back [provided all criteria is met] you get credit on the FERS retirement and forfeit the military retirement. The federal government doesn’t allow double time credit on both sides. 25 years bought back and keeping the military retirement would qualify for two retirements.

The way I interpreted bullet one is you would get to keep the pay that resulted from combat and get credit for that time towards FERS when bought back. Was the whole 25 years used for your CRSC or just combat time?
 

SFC H

Well-Known Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
My PDRL retirement orders from the Army specifically state the combat disability. The key words in the OPM regulation are Here is the excerpt of what my orders say:

Disability is based on injury or disease received in LOD as a direct Result of Armed Conflict or
caused by an instrumentality of war period as defined by law: YES
Disability resulted from a combat related injury as defined in 26 USC 104: YES

This is what I used to have my time count towards leave accrual and to be able to not have to waive my retired pay under FERS. I was medically retired due to combat incurred injuries.

The key words from the OPM regulation are "you were awarded the retired pay: Due to a service-connected disability either incurred in combat..."; meaning you were retired because you had a unfitting combat related service-disability, not retired from a regular 20+ year of active duty AND have combat disabilities (CRSC compensated) .
Well said FmrArmyAvatr!
I don’t think CRSC is allowed under the circumstances bryanb124 posted.
 

SFC H

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PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
SFC H,

I think I gave you the wrong impression.

I am retired after 25 years active duty. I am not attempting to gain a FERS disability retirement, but to buy my time without waiving retired pay as is listed as an exception in the first bullet of the highlighted passage you attached.

I am attempting to determine if the award of CRSC establishes for the purpose of FERS the ability to buy back my military without waiving my military retired pay.

Does that make sense?

Do you have a link to the most recent update to the CSRS/FERS handbook?

Thanks!

Bryan
 

SFC H

Well-Known Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
My PDRL retirement orders from the Army specifically state the combat disability. The key words in the OPM regulation are Here is the excerpt of what my orders say:

Disability is based on injury or disease received in LOD as a direct Result of Armed Conflict or
caused by an instrumentality of war period as defined by law: YES
Disability resulted from a combat related injury as defined in 26 USC 104: YES

This is what I used to have my time count towards leave accrual and to be able to not have to waive my retired pay under FERS. I was medically retired due to combat incurred injuries.

The key words from the OPM regulation are "you were awarded the retired pay: Due to a service-connected disability either incurred in combat..."; meaning you were retired because you had a unfitting combat related service-disability, not retired from a regular 20+ year of active duty AND have combat disabilities (CRSC compensated) .
Just looked mine up, the orders say the same. A copy was provide to OPM when the disability retirement application was submitted. I believe the verbiage OPM provides for keeping both retirements only applies to disability retirees.
 

bryanb124

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
My PDRL retirement orders from the Army specifically state the combat disability. The key words in the OPM regulation are Here is the excerpt of what my orders say:

Disability is based on injury or disease received in LOD as a direct Result of Armed Conflict or
caused by an instrumentality of war period as defined by law: YES
Disability resulted from a combat related injury as defined in 26 USC 104: YES

This is what I used to have my time count towards leave accrual and to be able to not have to waive my retired pay under FERS. I was medically retired due to combat incurred injuries.

The key words from the OPM regulation are "you were awarded the retired pay: Due to a service-connected disability either incurred in combat..."; meaning you were retired because you had a unfitting combat related service-disability, not retired from a regular 20+ year of active duty AND have combat disabilities (CRSC compensated) .
Thanks for sharing this. I think this is the clarification I was looking for. I figured the answer was 'no' but it is surprising how little clarity of information there is on this issue, nevermind CRSC (barring this forum that is :) )

Thanks team!

Bryan
 

ndy856

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
Quick summary from everyone input & rule of thumb for less than 20 mil years :
Blue Card (Med Mil ret) AND with CRSC= Yes, do Buy Back asap
vs.
Blue Card (Med Mil ret) but NO CRSC= No, Do Not do Buy Back (yet*).

CRSC decision is the main key here that determines whether your current ongoing Blue Card benefits right now (Tricare, monthly checks..etc) will later be stopped/waived/forfeited OR will continue without interruption when the FERS monthly check start paying out later at your OPM ret. time (MRA).
 

ndy856

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
Opinion: this is such a big decision & can affect the vet's future big time, but no forms on DFAS nor OPM mention this as a disclosure. Also very few HR or DFAS personnel warns or advises the veteran who just starting or starting the Buy Back inquiry.
 

RonG

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PEB Forum Veteran
Lifetime Supporter
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Quick summary from everyone input & rule of thumb for less than 20 mil years :
Blue Card (Med Mil ret) AND with CRSC= Yes, do Buy Back asap
vs.
Blue Card (Med Mil ret) but NO CRSC= No, Do Not do Buy Back (yet*).

CRSC decision is the main key here that determines whether your current ongoing Blue Card benefits right now (Tricare, monthly checks..etc) will later be stopped/waived/forfeited OR will continue without interruption when the FERS monthly check start paying out later at your OPM ret. time (MRA).
@ndy856

I have little knowledge about FERS.

However, there are two different issues being discussed here.
1. "My PDRL retirement orders from the Army specifically state the combat disability. The key words in the OPM regulation are Here is the excerpt of what my orders say:
Disability is based on injury or disease received in LOD as a direct Result of Armed Conflict or
caused by an instrumentality of war period as defined by law: YES
Disability resulted from a combat related injury as defined in 26 USC 104: YES"

AND

2. "CRSC decision is the main key here that determines whether your current ongoing Blue Card benefits right now..."
Combat Related Special Compensation (CRSC) is not the same thing as the issue at item one.

3. Item one is a DoD characterization of the disabilities that made a person unfit for continued service--those that were combat related.
Item two is an approved compensation that replaces some or all of waived retired pay that is considered Combat Related. A post-retirement application to one's service is required.
See: A Supplement to CRSC Information <---LINK

Ron
 

ndy856

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
With regards to CRSC, one must have a combat related disability to qualify. Also one must have a combat related military disability retirement to keep both military retirement and FERS retirement.
about that page (picture you posted), is the 10 USC..Chapt 1223 the same as CRSC? I wish it says CRSC in the paragraph to be easier to understand. just trying to clarify that the vets/civ only need 1 condition to be CRSC approved in order to keep BOTH benefits ("double dip") in the future when Bought Back time.
 

RonG

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about that page (picture you posted), is the 10 USC..Chapt 1223 the same as CRSC? I wish it says CRSC in the paragraph to be easier to understand. just trying to clarify that the vets/civ only need 1 condition to be CRSC approved in order to keep BOTH benefits ("double dip") in the future when Bought Back time.
cc: @SFC H

This is not CRSC: "My PDRL retirement orders from the Army specifically state the combat disability." It is a characterization of his disability retirement.

See: A Supplement to CRSC Information <---LINK

SFC H has been copied on this post.

Ron
 
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