Nervous on the 7200 AD point issue

AF_Defender

Registered Member
I'll try to keep this as simple as possible and hopefully the experts here can put my mind to rest. I have been reading the forums for months and this is my first post.

I am currently an AGR being MEBd for Crohns, Hip/Joint Arthropathy, and some other issues. I have had to live with the Crohns untreated for 8+ years because the Army doc I saw originally misdiagnosed me. My doc now says thats probably why I am having other autoimmune issues.

My treatments include Remicade infusions every 6 weeks, steroids, Sulfasalazine, Methotrexate, Lisinopril (Hypertension), Zoloft and Lorazapam (Anxiety) and Norco as a pain reliever.

I have well over 7600 retirement points total and I figured I would hit 7200 AD points on 31 MAY 15. So, last year when this was all going high order I decided it would be a good idea to drop my paperwork to retire on 1 JUL 15 and slug it out with the VA over my med issues later. I didnt want to risk being expedited through the MEB/PEB system and cut lose before I was over 7200 AD points. The NGB then sent me a message that I wouldnt hit my TAFMS date until 9 SEP 15 and I was not eligable to retire before then so I pulled my paperwork back while scratching my head.

There is no doubt that I am unfit and I'm sure I can make the process last past 31 MAY but I doubt I can make it to 9 SEP no matter how many delays I encounter. (also current LV balance is 72.5)

My question, if they medically retire me as unfit and I have 7200 AD points as an AGR will I get CRDP immediately and not have to wait until I am 60 or do I have to make it to 9 SEP 15 (just over 7300 AD points) like NGB told me for a regular service retirement?

(And just FYI, there is nobody on my base that has a clue to any of this!)

Thanks for any help...
 

nwlivewire

PEB Forum Veteran
I'll try to keep this as simple as possible and hopefully the experts here can put my mind to rest. I have been reading the forums for months and this is my first post.

I am currently an AGR being MEBd for Crohns, Hip/Joint Arthropathy, and some other issues. I have had to live with the Crohns untreated for 8+ years because the Army doc I saw originally misdiagnosed me. My doc now says thats probably why I am having other autoimmune issues.

My treatments include Remicade infusions every 6 weeks, steroids, Sulfasalazine, Methotrexate, Lisinopril (Hypertension), Zoloft and Lorazapam (Anxiety) and Norco as a pain reliever.

I have well over 7600 retirement points total and I figured I would hit 7200 AD points on 31 MAY 15. So, last year when this was all going high order I decided it would be a good idea to drop my paperwork to retire on 1 JUL 15 and slug it out with the VA over my med issues later. I didnt want to risk being expedited through the MEB/PEB system and cut lose before I was over 7200 AD points. The NGB then sent me a message that I wouldnt hit my TAFMS date until 9 SEP 15 and I was not eligable to retire before then so I pulled my paperwork back while scratching my head.

There is no doubt that I am unfit and I'm sure I can make the process last past 31 MAY but I doubt I can make it to 9 SEP no matter how many delays I encounter. (also current LV balance is 72.5)

My question, if they medically retire me as unfit and I have 7200 AD points as an AGR will I get CRDP immediately and not have to wait until I am 60 or do I have to make it to 9 SEP 15 (just over 7300 AD points) like NGB told me for a regular service retirement?

(And just FYI, there is nobody on my base that has a clue to any of this!)

Thanks for any help...
As I understand the 7,200 point deal, it would be automatic CRDP at retirement.

360 points = 1 year.

30 points = 1 month

20 years X 360 points = 7,200 points.

Have you contacted your State HQ Retirement section to ask?

nwlivewire
 

Jason Perry

Benevolent Leader
Site Founder
Staff Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
CRDP (including the special rules for Chapter 61 folks) is described in this section of the law:

"(a) Payment of both retired pay and compensation.
  • (1) In general. Subject to subsection (b), a member or former member of the uniformed services who is entitled for any month to retired pay and who is also entitled for that month to veterans' disability compensation for a qualifying service-connected disability (hereinafter in this section referred to as a "qualified retiree") is entitled to be paid both for that month without regard to sections 5304 and 5305 of title 38....
(b) Special rules for chapter 61 disability retirees.
  • (1) Career retirees. The retired pay of a member retired under chapter 61 of this title with 20 years or more of service otherwise creditable under section 1405 of this title , or at least 20 years of service computed under section 12732 of this title, at the time of the member's retirement is subject to reduction under sections 5304 and 5305 of title 38, but only to the extent that the amount of the member's retired pay under chapter 61 of this title exceeds the amount of retired pay to which the member would have been entitled under any other provision of law based upon the member's service in the uniformed services if the member had not been retired under chapter 61 of this title."
10 U.S.C. § 1414

(a) In general. For the purposes of the computation of the years of service of a member of the armed forces under a provision of this title providing for such computation to be made under this section, the years of service of the member are computed by adding--
  • (1) his years of active service;
  • (2) the years of service, not included in clause (1), with which he was entitled to be credited on May 31, 1958, in computing his basic pay; and
  • (3) the years of service, not included in clause (1) or (2), with which he would be entitled to be credited under section 12733 of this title [10 USCS § 12733] if he were entitled to retired pay under section 12731 of this title [10 USCS § 12731].

10 U.S.C. § 1405

Taken together, just having 7200 (or 7600) points is not enough to qualify for CRDP under the above law. It is having 20 years of service that matters. (There are exceptions to the 20 years requirement....TERA retirees can qualify for CRDP; however, this issue is apart from what you are asking).

It would not be so sure that you cannot make it until September....it may take being proactive, exercising your rights at each level and appealing; but it would not be unheard of for the process to take that long to complete (not saying it will definitely take that long either. There is some variability in case processing times. However, for example, I had a case before a Formal PEB in September. Bad result, so, first submitted Rebuttal at end of September, got a favorable result, then submitted VA rating reconsideration...still have not gotten a final response and DA 199 yet, and it is pushing four months now).

Best of luck with your case!
 

AF_Defender

Registered Member
Thanks for the info nwlivewire and Jason Perry. No, I have only spoken to the NGB guy that told me I wasn't eligible for a normal service retirement until Sep.

I have 26 years of service combined but my concern is total active duty years that I will be credited toward making my active service retirement for immediate CRDP. I thought it was just like the regular component, divide the AD points by 360 like nwlivewire described.

As I understand it if a active reserve component member is medically retired with less than 20 years of active duty service but more than 20 years combined service they wouldn't receive CRDP until age 60 (when their reserve retirement kicks in). AGRs like myself work towards a normal service retirement that you earn at 20 years total active service. The issue is how is that 20 years computed. Does reserve component divide total AD points by 360 then if over 20 add the 1405 time (I think that's right) or is it like the NGB guy said and active reserves need to hit the actual calendar 20 year mark before being eligible which is over 7300 points but then it is still divided by 360 which gives a total of over 20 years before 1405 time is added. I don't understand why that would be the case. This is what I found so far:

10 U.S. Code § 1208

(b) A member of the armed forces who is not a member of a regular component shall be credited, for the purposes of this chapter, with the number of years of service that he would count if he were computing his years of service under section 12733 of this title.

10 U.S. Code § 12733

For the purpose of computing the retired pay of a person under this chapter, the person’s years of service and any fraction of such a year are computed by dividing 360 into the sum of the following:

(1) The person’s days of active service.


So, on 31 MAY 15 when I hit 7200 AD points I will be credited with 20 years active service and I should have earned my service retirement right? Then the 1405 time gets added back on. So if my final separation date is after 31 MAY I should receive CRDP immediately? Does this sound right?
 

Jason Perry

Benevolent Leader
Site Founder
Staff Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
So, on 31 MAY 15 when I hit 7200 AD points I will be credited with 20 years active service and I should have earned my service retirement right? Then the 1405 time gets added back on. So if my final separation date is after 31 MAY I should receive CRDP immediately? Does this sound right?
No....

You are "melding"/combining the different requirement under 10 U.S. Code §§ 12731-1273. Again, the points are needed to qualify for a "good year" but having more points does not distribute to "create" other years that make you eligible for being considered as having "20 years" of service.

Recall that under 10 U.S.C. § 1414, the requirement is being credited with 20 or more years of service as calculated under 10 U.S.C. § 1405. That section says:

"For the purposes of the computation of the years of service of a member of the armed forces under a provision of this title providing for such computation to be made under this section [which, this section is the one to use under 1414, the CRDP statute], the years of service of the member are computed by adding--

  • (1) his years of active service [This one should be straight forward- remember, there may be fractional years];
  • (2) the years of service, not included in clause (1), with which he was entitled to be credited on May 31, 1958, in computing his basic pay [ I struck this out as it does not apply to you]; and
  • (3) the years of service, not included in clause (1) or (2), with which he would be entitled to be credited under section 12733 of this title if he were entitled to retired pay under section 12731 of this title."
10 U.S.C. § 1405

So, you can only get to 20 years by combining 1) Years of active service and 2) Years of service under 12733 IF you were entitled to retired pay under 12731.

Let's take a look at 12731:

"§ 12731. Age and service requirements
  • (a) Except as provided in subsection (c)[That section doesn't apply to you], a person is entitled, upon application, to retired pay computed under section 12739 of this title, if the person--
    • (1) has attained the eligibility age applicable under subsection (f) to that person;
    • (2) has performed at least 20 years of service computed under section 12732 of this title [10 USCS § 12732];
    • (3) in the case of a person who completed the service requirements of paragraph (2) before April 25, 2005, performed the last six years of qualifying service while a member of any category named in section 12732(a)(1) of thistitle [10 USCS § 12732(a)(1)], but not while a member of a regular component, the Fleet Reserve, or the Fleet Marine Corps Reserve, except that in the case of a person who completed the service requirements of paragraph (2) before October 5, 1994, the number of years of such qualifying service under this paragraph shall be eight; and
    • (4) is not entitled, under any other provision of law, to retired pay from an armed force or retainer pay as a member of the Fleet Reserve or the Fleet Marine Corps Reserve.
  • (b) Application for retired pay under this section must be made to the Secretary of the military department, or the Secretary of Homeland Security, as the case may be, having jurisdiction at the time of application over the armed force in which the applicant is serving or last served."
10 U.S.C. § 12731

So, now, we have to go to 10 U.S.C. § 12732 to see if you meet the "20 years requirement" under (a)(2):

"§ 12732. Entitlement to retired pay: computation of years of service
  • (a) Except as provided in subsection (b), for the purpose of determining whether a person is entitled to retired pay under section 12731 of this title, the person's years of service are computed by adding the following:
    • (1) The person's years of service, before July 1, 1949, in the following: [I am omitting the rest of this subsection as it doesn't apply to you]
    • (2) Each one-year period, after July 1, 1949, in which the person has been credited with at least 50 points on the following basis:
      • (A) One point for each day of--
        • (i) active service; or
        • (ii) full-time service under sections 316, 502, 503, 504, and 505 of title 32 while performing annual training duty or while attending a prescribed course of instruction at a school designated as a service school by law or by the Secretary concerned;
          if that service conformed to required standards and qualifications.
      • (B) One point for each attendance at a drill or period of equivalent instruction that was prescribed for that year by the Secretary concerned and conformed to the requirements prescribed by law, including attendance under section 502 of title 32.
      • (C) Points at the rate of 15 a year for membership--
        • (i) in a reserve component of an armed force,
        • (ii) in the Army or the Air Force without component, or
        • (iii) in any other category covered by subsection (a)(1) except a regular component.
      • (D) Points credited for the year under section 2126(b) of this title [10 USCS § 2126(b)].
      • (E) One point for each day on which funeral honors duty is performed for at least two hours under section 12503 of this title [10 USCS § 12503] or section 115 of title 32, unless the duty is performed while in a status for which credit is provided under another subparagraph of this paragraph."
10 U.S.C. § 12732

So, bottom line, the years requirement is what you will need to meet and the points are not dispositive on this point. The last bolded point shows that it is "year periods" that matter....points matter, too, but not for qualifying for retirement outright.

All may not be lost, though, for qualifying....it is not unusual (especially for members with a lot of reserve time and for those with breaks in service) for the RC to make errors. I recently "scrubbed" a lengthy RPAS for a client who had active duty time, service in one component RC, a break in service, and finally enlistment in the Army Reserve. Issues with Retirement Year Ending date were numerous (carrying wrong anniversary dates forward, not adjusting in later years, etc.) to have errors. I would suggest reviewing your records to see if the NGB date provided is accurate with reference to your actual dates of service.

Hope this helped.
 

nwlivewire

PEB Forum Veteran
No....

You are "melding"/combining the different requirement under 10 U.S. Code §§ 12731-1273. Again, the points are needed to qualify for a "good year" but having more points does not distribute to "create" other years that make you eligible for being considered as having "20 years" of service.

Recall that under 10 U.S.C. § 1414, the requirement is being credited with 20 or more years of service as calculated under 10 U.S.C. § 1405. That section says:

"For the purposes of the computation of the years of service of a member of the armed forces under a provision of this title providing for such computation to be made under this section [which, this section is the one to use under 1414, the CRDP statute], the years of service of the member are computed by adding--

  • (1) his years of active service [This one should be straight forward- remember, there may be fractional years];
  • (2) the years of service, not included in clause (1), with which he was entitled to be credited on May 31, 1958, in computing his basic pay [ I struck this out as it does not apply to you]; and
  • (3) the years of service, not included in clause (1) or (2), with which he would be entitled to be credited under section 12733 of this title if he were entitled to retired pay under section 12731 of this title."
10 U.S.C. § 1405

So, you can only get to 20 years by combining 1) Years of active service and 2) Years of service under 12733 IF you were entitled to retired pay under 12731.

Let's take a look at 12731:

"§ 12731. Age and service requirements
  • (a) Except as provided in subsection (c)[That section doesn't apply to you], a person is entitled, upon application, to retired pay computed under section 12739 of this title, if the person--
    • (1) has attained the eligibility age applicable under subsection (f) to that person;
    • (2) has performed at least 20 years of service computed under section 12732 of this title [10 USCS § 12732];
    • (3) in the case of a person who completed the service requirements of paragraph (2) before April 25, 2005, performed the last six years of qualifying service while a member of any category named in section 12732(a)(1) of thistitle [10 USCS § 12732(a)(1)], but not while a member of a regular component, the Fleet Reserve, or the Fleet Marine Corps Reserve, except that in the case of a person who completed the service requirements of paragraph (2) before October 5, 1994, the number of years of such qualifying service under this paragraph shall be eight; and
    • (4) is not entitled, under any other provision of law, to retired pay from an armed force or retainer pay as a member of the Fleet Reserve or the Fleet Marine Corps Reserve.
  • (b) Application for retired pay under this section must be made to the Secretary of the military department, or the Secretary of Homeland Security, as the case may be, having jurisdiction at the time of application over the armed force in which the applicant is serving or last served."
10 U.S.C. § 12731

So, now, we have to go to 10 U.S.C. § 12732 to see if you meet the "20 years requirement" under (a)(2):

"§ 12732. Entitlement to retired pay: computation of years of service
  • (a) Except as provided in subsection (b), for the purpose of determining whether a person is entitled to retired pay under section 12731 of this title, the person's years of service are computed by adding the following:
    • (1) The person's years of service, before July 1, 1949, in the following: [I am omitting the rest of this subsection as it doesn't apply to you]
    • (2) Each one-year period, after July 1, 1949, in which the person has been credited with at least 50 points on the following basis:
      • (A) One point for each day of--
        • (i) active service; or
        • (ii) full-time service under sections 316, 502, 503, 504, and 505 of title 32 while performing annual training duty or while attending a prescribed course of instruction at a school designated as a service school by law or by the Secretary concerned;
          if that service conformed to required standards and qualifications.
      • (B) One point for each attendance at a drill or period of equivalent instruction that was prescribed for that year by the Secretary concerned and conformed to the requirements prescribed by law, including attendance under section 502 of title 32.
      • (C) Points at the rate of 15 a year for membership--
        • (i) in a reserve component of an armed force,
        • (ii) in the Army or the Air Force without component, or
        • (iii) in any other category covered by subsection (a)(1) except a regular component.
      • (D) Points credited for the year under section 2126(b) of this title [10 USCS § 2126(b)].
      • (E) One point for each day on which funeral honors duty is performed for at least two hours under section 12503 of this title [10 USCS § 12503] or section 115 of title 32, unless the duty is performed while in a status for which credit is provided under another subparagraph of this paragraph."
10 U.S.C. § 12732

So, bottom line, the years requirement is what you will need to meet and the points are not dispositive on this point. The last bolded point shows that it is "year periods" that matter....points matter, too, but not for qualifying for retirement outright.

All may not be lost, though, for qualifying....it is not unusual (especially for members with a lot of reserve time and for those with breaks in service) for the RC to make errors. I recently "scrubbed" a lengthy RPAS for a client who had active duty time, service in one component RC, a break in service, and finally enlistment in the Army Reserve. Issues with Retirement Year Ending date were numerous (carrying wrong anniversary dates forward, not adjusting in later years, etc.) to have errors. I would suggest reviewing your records to see if the NGB date provided is accurate with reference to your actual dates of service.

Hope this helped.
I don't know if I am going to muddy the water here - or if this applies to your case...... but,

As a NG SM that was going through the IDES process, I was getting close to 20 traditional "good" years which included both AD and NG reserve time.

I had to meet both the 20 "good" year requirements of making a qualifying "good" year with the minimum points required to make a "good" year, AND then,

once I had the required minimum points for that year that made for a "good" year, I also had to cross past the finish line of my anniversary year end date.

In my case, I had completed all the needed points for my 20th "good" year very early on in my anniversary year time frame. But, I also had to NOT be retired prior to my anniversary year end date. I had to cross that anniversary year end date by one day by still being a military service member in order for that year to fully count as a full "good" year.

In my case, my anniversary year date was 30 JAN. I retired onto PDRL the following 16 APR.

I was able to still be on AD orders until after 30 JAN, and on 16 APR I was discharged onto PDRL. I made it just past my full anniversary year end date on 30 JAN. In FEB, I was issued my 20 year letter.

Again, I don't know if this muddies the water, but I know I had to have BOTH the minimum points necessary to make a good year, AND, I had to fully cross my anniversary year end date by one day to get that year of time and points to qualify as a "good" year.

Timing is everything.

nwlivewire
 

T-man

PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
AF Defender,

Hoping I don't muddier it too, but just want to add as I was in your shoes 5 yrs ago, after trying to drop my retirement paperwork. At the time I was at my 15th yr 1 mos AD, and my LES states 20 yrs pay, because of the 4 yr 11 mos of Reserve time prior to AD. The Retirement office denied it because I did not have enough Active Federal Service time.

I thought I had 7200 pts and able to retire but, I was wrong all along.

After seeking all kinds of legal advice, it all boils down to what Jason quoted above and in your case being an AGR is of 10 U.S.C. § 12732 to see if you meet the "20 years requirement" under (a)(2):

Since you are currently an AGR retiring from AD, you are more of a 50 pointer system than the 360 pointer system IAW to your 249E. 360 pts are more of TPU Soldier retiring from the Reserve side, and will get their CRDP at age 60 or less with the 90 day dep rule.

If you haven't done it yet, I suggest to check your 249E and convert all you time on DD 1506 (if Army) DA 1506, AR 37-104-4 Ch2-4a for your BASD and PEDP for TAFMSD and 1405 purposes if qualified.

To get your BASD adjusted, all of your Active Duty time counts I.e. AT, NCOES, basic & AIT, deployments etc. if the total AD time puts you over the 20 yr mark in addition to your AGR time, then your drills starts to count, and will give more AD time for 1405 pay purposes.

Here's my current 1506 calculations for comparison:
- 4 yr 11 mos Reserve time
-19 yrs 7 mos AD
-After DA1506: 21 yrs 4 mos
-After Drills count: 1405 purposes- 22 yrs

Good luck

T-man
 
Last edited:

AF_Defender

Registered Member
No no I'm tracking what your saying nwlivewire, so did you have 20 years of active duty and 20 years traditional when you retired?

I have 26 years of service (got my 20 year letter 6 years ago) so I already have the "traditional" retirement at age 60. If I am put out for disability I will get a disability retirement immediately and CRDP at 60.

But my issue is that I am AGR (active duty) and the confusion is what exactly constitutes 20 "active duty" years for immediate retirement (and immediate CRDP if put out for disability). Is it simply dividing 7200 active duty days by 360 to come up with 20 as stated in 1208 and 12733? (on 31 MAY I will have 7200 AD days and over 7500 creditable retirement points)

I agree timing in crucial, that's why I'm trying to be as careful with this as I can.
 

AF_Defender

Registered Member
AF Defender,

Hoping I don't muddier it too, but just want to add as I was in your shoes 5 yrs ago, after trying to drop my retirement paperwork. At the time I was at my 15th yr 1 mos AD, and my LES states 20 yrs pay, because of the 4 yr 11 mos of Reserve time prior to AD. The Retirement office denied it because I did not have enough Active Federal Service time.

I thought I had 7200 pts and able to retire but, I was wrong all along.

After seeking all kinds of legal advice, it all boils down to what Jason quoted above and in your case being an AGR is of 10 U.S.C. § 12732 to see if you meet the "20 years requirement" under (a)(2):

Since you are currently an AGR retiring from AD, you are more of a 50 pointer system than the 360 pointer system IAW to your 249E. 360 pts are more of TPU Soldier retiring from the Reserve side, and will get their CRDP at age 60 or less with the 90 day dep rule.

If you haven't done it yet, I suggest to check your 249E and convert all you time on DD 1506 (if Army) DA 1506, AR 37-104-4 Ch2-4a for your BASD and PEDP for TAFMSD and 1405 purposes if qualified.

To get your BASD adjusted, all of your Active Duty time counts I.e. AT, NCOES, basic & AIT, deployments etc. if the total AD time puts you over the 20 yr mark in addition to your AGR time, then your drills starts to count, and will give more AD time for 1405 pay purposes.

Here's my current 1506 calculations for comparison:
- 4 yr 11 mos Reserve time
-19 yrs 7 mos AD
-After DA1506: 21 yrs 4 mos
-After Drills count: 1405 purposes- 22 yrs

Good luck

T-man


T-man,

You got that backwards, AGR is 360/yr and TPU is 50/yr. Also AGRs receive their retirement immediately and TPUs have to wait until 60.
 

maparker

Staff Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
I was MEBed for reactive arthritis and migraines in 2005. I had 20 plus years of active duty (Army) when MEBed. I took (and continue to take) similar medicines as you are taking for your Crohn's. The PEB found me fit. I appealed stating I was unfit. Appealed denied, formal board denied. I retired a year later and have been rated 100% P&T from the VA effective the date of my retirement.

Mike
 

Jason Perry

Benevolent Leader
Site Founder
Staff Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
But my issue is that I am AGR (active duty) and the confusion is what exactly constitutes 20 "active duty" years for immediate retirement (and immediate CRDP if put out for disability). Is it simply dividing 7200 active duty days by 360 to come up with 20 as stated in 1208 and 12733? (on 31 MAY I will have 7200 AD days and over 7500 creditable retirement points)
I understand your concern and your issues, but do not understand any remaining "confusion"- I don't know how to state it more clearly than I have already; your points factor into entitlement for reserve retirement purposes (you will definitely get CRDP entitlement at age 60). However, it appears that you do not currently have enough "years" of service to qualify for an active duty retirement (which, if you did meet the required "years" for such a retirement, then you would be in the hunt for an active duty retirement and immediate receipt of CRDP if retired for disability [and, of course, meeting the other criteria for CRDP].

I may be wrong. But, my read of the cited statutes and my experience in these matters pretty clearly lays out the situation you face. Absent some contravening cited authority, I will not spend any more time addressing this issue; I would be very happy to hear some other theory or basis for you getting immediate CRDP for reasons other than I have stated. If you succeed in getting immediate CRDP based on reasons outside of what I have posited are the requirements, please share your experiences. It would definitely help others. I won't address further any questions based on "ideas" that fall outside of the statutes I have cited above.

I hope all goes well for you.
 

AF_Defender

Registered Member
Jason,

I'm sorry, I don't think I've explained this very well. Your expertise is in these matters is unquestionable and welcome. I have probably read hundreds of your posts.

Yes, I am on the hunt for my active duty retirement and immediate CRDP if they push me out for disability. I'm just unsure if I become eligible for my active duty retirement in 4 months (like I calculate) or in 7 months (like the guy from HRO calculated)

Also, once eligible for 20 year "active duty" retirement an Active Guard Reserve (AGR) soldier forfeits the retirement he would have received at age 60 because he receives it immediately upon retirement.
 

AF_Defender

Registered Member
AF Defender,

Hoping I don't muddier it too, but just want to add as I was in your shoes 5 yrs ago, after trying to drop my retirement paperwork. At the time I was at my 15th yr 1 mos AD, and my LES states 20 yrs pay, because of the 4 yr 11 mos of Reserve time prior to AD. The Retirement office denied it because I did not have enough Active Federal Service time.

I thought I had 7200 pts and able to retire but, I was wrong all along.

After seeking all kinds of legal advice, it all boils down to what Jason quoted above and in your case being an AGR is of 10 U.S.C. § 12732 to see if you meet the "20 years requirement" under (a)(2):

Since you are currently an AGR retiring from AD, you are more of a 50 pointer system than the 360 pointer system IAW to your 249E. 360 pts are more of TPU Soldier retiring from the Reserve side, and will get their CRDP at age 60 or less with the 90 day dep rule.

If you haven't done it yet, I suggest to check your 249E and convert all you time on DD 1506 (if Army) DA 1506, AR 37-104-4 Ch2-4a for your BASD and PEDP for TAFMSD and 1405 purposes if qualified.

To get your BASD adjusted, all of your Active Duty time counts I.e. AT, NCOES, basic & AIT, deployments etc. if the total AD time puts you over the 20 yr mark in addition to your AGR time, then your drills starts to count, and will give more AD time for 1405 pay purposes.

Here's my current 1506 calculations for comparison:
- 4 yr 11 mos Reserve time
-19 yrs 7 mos AD
-After DA1506: 21 yrs 4 mos
-After Drills count: 1405 purposes- 22 yrs

Good luck

T-man

T-man

Was the issue that you did not have the 7200 AD points to make the AFS 20 years? Or did you have 7200 AD points?
 

AF_Defender

Registered Member
I was MEBed for reactive arthritis and migraines in 2005. I had 20 plus years of active duty (Army) when MEBed. I took (and continue to take) similar medicines as you are taking for your Crohn's. The PEB found me fit. I appealed stating I was unfit. Appealed denied, formal board denied. I retired a year later and have been rated 100% P&T from the VA effective the date of my retirement.

Mike
Mike,

WOW!!! found fit!!! I have read (and been verbally told by the docs at the clinic) that because of these conditions and meds I am unfit. Maybe because of AFSC/MOS and its a mobility position, but still WOW found fit! LOL

I think I would welcome a fit finding, this way I could just take my normal active retirement in Sep and not worry about dragging this out until I'm sure I'm over 20.
 

nwlivewire

PEB Forum Veteran
t
Jason,

I'm sorry, I don't think I've explained this very well. Your expertise is in these matters is unquestionable and welcome. I have probably read hundreds of your posts.

Yes, I am on the hunt for my active duty retirement and immediate CRDP if they push me out for disability. I'm just unsure if I become eligible for my active duty retirement in 4 months (like I calculate) or in 7 months (like the guy from HRO calculated)

Also, once eligible for 20 year "active duty" retirement an Active Guard Reserve (AGR) soldier forfeits the retirement he would have received at age 60 because he receives it immediately upon retirement.
In my case, I had several years AD from 3 branches and NG and Reserve time.

On my final RPAS, all my entire career of qualifying points that counted toward retirement pay were added together in a column.

I had completed 20 good years of time, that time being based on my being able to complete a time of year based on my anniversary year.

So there are two things going on - one is time and one is points.

So I had completed 20 full years of time and I had completed 20 years of time that had the minimum pots needed for each year.

Some of my good years were all AD, some were simply NG/Reserve time years, and some years were a combination of both AD and Reserve.

I also had two "partial" good years that when added together, they created a "good" year.

I also had a few years where I did do my "time", but I didn't get enough points in those years. Those years did not count as a "good" year, but the points did and carried over to the grand total of career points that counted toward retirement.

So the 20 years of time is important as it is one of the two things that make up a good year that counts toward the 20 "good" years needed for retirement.

The other is qualifying retirement points.

With the many branches of service I did time in (3 AD branches, 3 states of NG time, two branches Reserve), plus my breaks in service when I was not in any branch of service (took a few years off to be a Mom, or travel around the world, or be a civilian), plus my partial "good" years, plus my "normal" years of time and points, it took me 34 chronological years of my life to get to my 20 "good" years that counted for retirement. So with all my starts, stops, incompletes and partials, etc., from the day I signed my very first military contract to the day I was placed onto PDRL - it took me 34 years to get to the 20 "good" years of this retirement finish line.

So it's time and points.

The 360 day year and the 30 day month is what is used to calculate your "Length of Service" (LOS) - how big the percentage of your retirement check will be based on your monthly "High 3" base pay.

I ended up with 12 years 5 months of time for my LOS. That translates to a little more than 31% of my monthly base pay. That 31.xx% of my base pay will be the maximum I will receive when I am eligible for my CRDP.

My CRDP paperwork is back in Kentucky under review as I am contending I should have been eligible for CRDP at time of retirement when I was placed onto PDRL back in APR 2012. I am contending I had early retirement time credit that has been overlooked. If I am correct, then DFAS will owe me quite a sum of CRDP money (even after taxes) as it will be retro back to APR 2012. I believe I qualified for CRDP in APR 2012 based on my age, my 20-year retirement letter, and my early retirement time credits that got overlooked and were not counted.

So it's time and points.

Hope this clears things up and I did not muddy the waters. I suspect you might want to look at your RPAS to make sure it's correct and all time (retirement points) are fully accounted for and under the correct coding.

nwlivewire
 
Last edited:

T-man

PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
AF Defender,

Sorry for not getting back with your question soon enough as I was on vacation. The answer to your question is No, my issue was not having enough Active Duty time for immediate CRDP. Thanks for the correction, I noticed that I got that TPU and AGR thing backwards as well as the RYEs and NGB 23 mixed up with 249 etc. However, that should not be the focal point as I was trying really hard to get to the bottom of it, because DODI 1205.07 and the law above 10 U.S.C. § 12732 and 33 still applies. Here’s an edited version for my earlier post for clarification of my case in relation to yours, hopefully it helps:

*Issue: Not enough Active Duty time

*Poster: 7600 points and was told by NG short of 7200 retirement points if chose to retired by SEP

*Question: What happened to my 400 plus points?

-In reference to the 50 or 78 pointer system I mentioned earlier, with an assumption that the missing points were when you were a “Drill Soldier”.

-Depending on how you got the 400 plus missing points, but there are Active Duty time (ADT) included in it….i.e., AT, deployment etc…..and under the 50/78 point calculation only ADT points that counts when converted.

For example: 4 years in the Reserves and AT(2 weeks) being the only source of ADT and if converted ***4yrs is only = to 2 months of ADT

As I recommended earlier to use DD 1506 for conversion and if the your ADT converted time allows to put you at the 20 year mark, then the IDT points starts to count for 1405 pay purposes, which will then give you more time as well (See my timeline). Also membership points count as well***


Good luck
 
Last edited:

AF_Defender

Registered Member
T-man,

Thanks for the reply, I'm tracking on everything you wrote and its all in line with what I understood of the "process". But here's my hang up.

I have 26 good years, all my Active Duty points will equal 7200 at end of May, my total retirement points is 7600+ (with the 1405 time) But I was told I wont have 20 years active duty until September when I will be over 7300 active duty points. Which if divided by 360 actually equals 20.29 years plus the 1405 time. My concern was if this is correct than I wouldn't get immediate CRDP until 60 if medically retired before September.

This is all academic for me at this point since Jason Perry's advice that this could last well beyond September was confirmed by my docs and PEBLO recently. They have assured me my case was going to last at least until then and probably longer. Still a lot to be done.

I'm still curious about this issue though and for the sake of everybody else who has active/guard/reserve time I hope we can get a firm answer on whether or not 7200 AD points equals 20 years AD to qualify for immediate CRPD. (Like me and nwlivewire thought)
 

Jason Perry

Benevolent Leader
Site Founder
Staff Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
I'm still curious about this issue though and for the sake of everybody else who has active/guard/reserve time I hope we can get a firm answer on whether or not 7200 AD points equals 20 years AD to qualify for immediate CRPD. (Like me and nwlivewire thought)
I have already given a "firm answer" on this point.

As a baseline answer- no 7200 points does not automatically equal 20 years "AD to qualify for immediate CRDP". Points do not always equate to years of service- even if divided by 360 (and when they still add up to 20 "years." ) There are cases where they can. For active duty retirement, you need 20 years of active federal service (in the vast majority of cases; there are exceptions, such as TERA).

The same holds true for reserve retirement. For reserve retirement, no 7200 points are not enough....you need 20 "good years." There are situations where 7200 points would qualify for 20 "good years." There are cases where 7200 points would not qualify.

I broke out the relevant statute earlier in this thread. The rules (while maybe confusing to folks) are not so complicated. The bolded part above suggests that there is some ambiguity in the law or regulations. The "firm answer" is as I have laid out before. For active duty retirement, you need 20 years of active service. For reserve retirement, you need 20 years of "good service" as laid out in the calculations under 10 U.S.C. § 12732.
 
Last edited:

macjac69

PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
I have a question for Mr. Perry in particular, say a person is current M-day Army guard completed the IDES process for the most part, received an unfit disposition and the result from the IPEB has been issued a permanent disability retirement w/less than a 30% rating this after first being issued a 199 from the PEB that said separate w/severance or in lieu select transfer to retired reserve and after appealing and going thru a formal board and getting issued a 199-1 that basically said the same thing minus the option to select severance if desired. I notified the IPEB of that discrepancy and they issued a new 199-1 that offered both options. Now having said that I have around 6191 AD points and around 7390 Retirement points acoording to the most current RPAM statement.

According to my PEBLO I qualify based soley on reement points for a retirement where I will draw a check immediately after separation and wont have to wait until retirement age which for me would be age 57 due to deployments and this is stated on my RPAM also. I thought to do that I would need to have 7200 AD points not retirement points
because a large amount of those retirement points are for
IDT drills, AFTP's (additional flying trng periods) all of which no orders are involved.

I'm thoroughly confused and am trying to clear this up before my final date rolls around in the next two weeks.

Thanks
 

pcarroll

Registered Member
I have a question for Mr. Perry in particular, say a person is current M-day Army guard completed the IDES process for the most part, received an unfit disposition and the result from the IPEB has been issued a permanent disability retirement w/less than a 30% rating this after first being issued a 199 from the PEB that said separate w/severance or in lieu select transfer to retired reserve and after appealing and going thru a formal board and getting issued a 199-1 that basically said the same thing minus the option to select severance if desired. I notified the IPEB of that discrepancy and they issued a new 199-1 that offered both options. Now having said that I have around 6191 AD points and around 7390 Retirement points acoording to the most current RPAM statement.

According to my PEBLO I qualify based soley on reement points for a retirement where I will draw a check immediately after separation and wont have to wait until retirement age which for me would be age 57 due to deployments and this is stated on my RPAM also. I thought to do that I would need to have 7200 AD points not retirement points
because a large amount of those retirement points are for
IDT drills, AFTP's (additional flying trng periods) all of which no orders are involved.

I'm thoroughly confused and am trying to clear this up before my final date rolls around in the next two weeks.

Thanks
macjac69 - did you end up with immediate retirement?

I have a question for Mr. Perry in particular, say a person is current M-day Army guard completed the IDES process for the most part, received an unfit disposition and the result from the IPEB has been issued a permanent disability retirement w/less than a 30% rating this after first being issued a 199 from the PEB that said separate w/severance or in lieu select transfer to retired reserve and after appealing and going thru a formal board and getting issued a 199-1 that basically said the same thing minus the option to select severance if desired. I notified the IPEB of that discrepancy and they issued a new 199-1 that offered both options. Now having said that I have around 6191 AD points and around 7390 Retirement points acoording to the most current RPAM statement.

According to my PEBLO I qualify based soley on reement points for a retirement where I will draw a check immediately after separation and wont have to wait until retirement age which for me would be age 57 due to deployments and this is stated on my RPAM also. I thought to do that I would need to have 7200 AD points not retirement points
because a large amount of those retirement points are for
IDT drills, AFTP's (additional flying trng periods) all of which no orders are involved.

I'm thoroughly confused and am trying to clear this up before my final date rolls around in the next two weeks.

Thanks
 
data-matched-content-ui-type="image_stacked" data-matched-content-rows-num="3" data-matched-content-columns-num="1" data-ad-format="autorelaxed">
Top