One Big Mess: Separation, Discrepancies, too many MFR's

TheNemos

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Currently my husband is in the process of going through a board to determine if he should be separated. We feel as do many who have heard the story/case, that this shouldn't be happening. There is so much to this I might leave out bits and pieces, but can add to it further when they come up I'm trying to include everything early on.

He is being separated for his 4th PT test fail in 24 month time period. Testing outcomes are as follows:

6/26/2012
Cardio: 40/44.90 1 mile walk test 13:22 w/ hr of 171 (NOT ACCURATE)
Waist: 37.50/15.10
Pushups: 27/5 (NOT ACCURATE)
Sit-ups: 43/8
Score: 73 FAIL
This test has two discrepancies, his walk test portion and his push up portion. I will get into this below.

3/7/2012
Cardio 39/42.30
Waist 38.5/13.50
Pushups: 43/8.70
Sit ups: 43/8
Score: 72.5 FAIL
The only information I can give is he started feeling like he was getting sick the night before, woke up at 5:00am that morning and couldn't cancel his PT test appointment due to not feeling well. He told them and they made him test. Took it and failed….he did not go to the doctors dayquil did the work.

8/29/11
Cardio: Exempt
Waist: 36.5/16.4
Pushups: 50/9.30
Situps: Exempt
Score: 85.67 PASS

2/25/11
Cardio: 42/49.2
Waist: 37/15.8
Pushups: 50/8.4
Situps: Exempt
Score: 81.56 PASS

1/28/11
Cardio 13:17/42.3
Waist 37.5/15.1
Pushups: 51/8.5
Situps: 37/3.5
Score: 69.4 FAIL
He did w/o obtaining a profile, knowing his body couldn't handle it.

10/22/10
Cardio: 12:11/50.9
Waist: 36/17
Pushups: 46/7.8
Situps: 31/1.3 DIS
Score: 77 FAIL
He did w/o obtaining a profile, knowing his body couldn't handle it, sit-ups killed it for him.

4/16/10
Cardio: 37/34
Waist: 34/25
Pushups: 53/9
Situps: Exempt
Score: 75.56 PASS

12/19/2008
Cardio: Exempt
Waist: 36/22.2
Pushups: 50/8.75
Situps: Exempt
Score: 77.38 PASS

Note in all of these his lowest P/U was 43….not counting the most recent as the count of 27 is one of the discrepancies

The reason for his exempt status is he suffers from migraines that are stress and exertion induced. Process of treatment has been long, and with each new treatment, he is put on a profile to not stress out his body and see if the affects are improving his migraines.

__________________________________________________

Below are the events that lead to his 4th PT failure which was taken inaccurately.Taken from my husbands MFR which is very detailed on the events that happened the day of his test.

"This letter is in response to the PT Test I completed on 26 June 2012. I hope that you will consider the following information and remove the test in its entirety.

During my PT test that occurred on 26 June 2012, there were errors that contributed to my fail. During the walk portion of the test there was an issue with the heart rate monitor. On the final lap of my walk test just prior to crossing the finish line I looked at my watch to see where my heart rate was, it read 150. When showing the PT augmentee, she stated that there was no heart rate showing. She then took the watch and tried to reset it and a heart rate came up of 180. I quickly told her that was not my heart rate, she then called over to another PT augmentee who was helping someone else with another heart rate monitor issue, and told them "we have another one that is messing up". When he came over, we took a couple of steps away from the other people. He held up another monitor and it read 171. I said "this isn't my heart rate", he said "it has been enough time that my heart rate would have gone down". I responded to him saying "I'm freaking out and it is probably going up". He then told the other PTL augmentee to just write down 171. Due to test anxiety I have to prepare for my PT test with mock tests to ensure I remain calm. During those mock tests my heart rate never went above 157 all within a time frame of 13:30-14:15 for 1.0 mile walk.

The other discrepancy was during the pushup portion of the test. While I was performing my pushups my counter was not counting aloud and then moved from my head to my feet. I was counting in my head and was on 27, when he finally said 17. He never informed me on what I was doing wrong so that I could correct the problem. While still doing the pushups I was frustrated and told him that if I was doing something wrong he needed to let me know. He then stated that I needed to move my feet closer together. After the pushup portion of the test I once again explained to my counter that if I was doing something wrong he needed to inform me so that I have a chance to do more. He then said "I was wrong I should have let you know, just let them know I messed up". Then I was approached by another PT augmentee and he said that "he agree with his count". I said "that is fine if he agreed with his count, but he needed to let me know what I was doing wrong so that I could correct it". During the last 8 PT tests I have not gotten below 40 push ups. As recent as 19 July 2012 I performed a mock PT test with a PTL and performed 45 pushups.

I requested a list of PTL's that could administer a mock test to show that the last test was an error and that I in fact could pass. Please see the attached documents that reflect the results of the 3 mock PT tests that were performed by trained PTL's. Also I have attached an MFR from my PCM reflecting that I do have documented anxiety and that during stressful situations my heart rate could rise. The anxiety of the watch not working could have overall contributed to an elevated heart rate of 171. I have also attached a print out of 15 PT tests and if you look at the pushup section you will notice that my last 7 PT test reflect the lowest amount performed was 43 pushups, but have averaged in the 50's. "

__________________________________________________________

I'm going to start a nameless reference of the people involved.
-Male FAC is I believe one of either 2 or 3 in the FAC, is one of the testers.
-Male PTL is one of the testers.
-Female PTL is one of the testers.
-Counter/Member, is the member who counted the pushups for my husband he was also testing.


Timeline of the events immediately after his PT test:
My husband is upset about the events that took place during his PT test. He expresses it, and refuses to sign the test outcome, writes his complaint on the back. He immediately goes to his UFPM to complain at this point unaware of what his score is. His UFPM goes to the FAC who do an "internal review" between the members in the office. "Internal Review" finding after 2 days, is, he failed and score is inputed in the system. During this time 3 MFR's were done. Two by male FAC and male PTL people, the third by another PT test member (his counter). These MFR's were given to the UFPM and she told my husband he has two choices, 4th PT fail, he can fight it or be kicked out. Of course he fights it, and due to regs is given a Referral EPR 3 and they take his new promotion he just made. We tried to obtain copies of the MFR's but they were not provided and they would not give them to us. It wasn't until everything went to ADC that the copies were provided and we realized just how inaccurate his test was conveyed. To the naked eye, without fail my husband failed there were MFR's to back it up he should be kicked out. If you actually look at what happened that day and the following MFR's showing how it should have been, he shouldn't be going through any of this. After supplying his EPR Rebuttal, nothing happened. Last week he was called in and read the information for separations, he was not allowed to speak and was only there officially. During the beginning of this whole thing, my husband went to his commanders secretary to schedule an appointment with him. He was informed he had to talk to his 1SGT, so he did. His 1Sgt informed him if his commander wanted to talk to him, he would contact him. We had hopes that he would be called in before all of this got to the level it did, but he never was. No one in his chain of command is really listening to him, they said basically thank you for your 12 years goodbye.

_______________________________________________________________________

MFR fun stuff for walk portion of test:

Male FAC MFR went as follows I have left out the mumbo jumbo that doesn't pertain to it…..as soon as he crossed the finish line, he was asked to get with one of our assigned PTL augments to give them his heart rate. He complained that his watch was not giving an accurate reading. Knowing that such an issue might arise, I had a spare heart rate monitor in hand and already assigned a PTL to take his heart rate with the functioning equipment. I had the PTL aim the monitor right at his heart rate transmitter and the reading was 171. SSGT… my husband didn't complain nor did he voice out any concerns regarding his walk test.


Male PTL MFR went as follows I have left out the mumbo jumbo that doesn't pertain to it…..I was observing the PT assessment for SSGT….my husband. I was assigned as the heart rate monitor recorder taking the final heart rates as people passed the finish line. As SSGT my husband, crossed the finish line, the monitor on his wrist wasn't showing the heart rate, so I used the one I was assigned to take his heart rate with my functioning equipment. I aimed the monitor at his heart rate transmitter and the reading was 171. SSGT…my husband didn't seem to have any issue concerning his walk test.


******If you look at both the MFR's towards the end, they are almost verbatim of each other.

*****Please keep in mind, there were 4 total testing people that were FAC and PTL's…..according to all the MFR's 3 were involved directly with my husband on the walk portion. Mind you the day of testing there were over 13 people testing….this is from my knowledge I was in the car for support…..some members coming across the finish line right before and after….but 3 focused enough on my husband to provide MFR's.

Female PTL MFR went as follows I have left out the mumbo jumbo that doesn't pertain to it…..This is to state that SSGT my husband came in to do a walk physical test on 6/26/2012. I was the individual that was taking down the times for each lap he completed. As he completed his last lap he immediately walked up to me so I could see his heart rate. Unfortunately, the heart rate monitor he was wearing around his wrist was not working and I could not take his heart rate right after he finished. We immediately called over Male PTL who had a working heart rate monitor, but who was helping another individual with the same problem. After a minute Male PTL came over and was able to take SSGT my husband's heart rate.

SSGT my husband's heart rate was not taken right after he finished therefore was not an accurate reading in my opinion. Equipment failure played a major factor in SST my husband's heart rate not being read accurately.

******After we received the two MFR's from the Male FAC and Male PTL and saw how dishonest they were, we went to the Male FAC and requested a list of the PTL's that day. He informed us that it was himself, Male PTL and two others…..when I asked for the others name, they were both male. I told him that couldn't be correct as I remembered a Female PTL there that day. He then told me no that can't be right and I informed him, it was a blonde, and I know she was there as I saw her trying to help him at the end of his test. He then said the only person he could believe it to be was XXXXX. We contacted XXXX and she didn't remember anything of the test, my husband then asked her her hair color, she said she is a brunette….he asked if she had been blonde recently, she said no. So we asked her if she knew of a blonde PTL who would have worked Pt testing that day, she said she could only think of two and gave us their names. We tried to contact the first and she had already PCSed, so we contacted the other….not going to lie I looked her up on Facebook and the resemblance was uncanny to the person I saw on his test date. He tried not to lead her with his questioning and asked if she remembered a test where a member had problems with a monitor after crossing….at that point she said she did and laid down the events from memory that she had which hit the nail on the head, it was the same Female PTL.


I cannot even get into my husbands PCM's MFR as it is 3 pages long and gets into medical detail…..but for fun and he states that he can see his anxiety coming into play as he is documented for anxiety under stressful conditions and that he doesn't feel the way test was done or amount of time gap was accurate.

Wanting to show the inaccuracy of the heart rate reading, my husband contacted his new UFPM and requested a list of current PTL's. From that list we were able to schedule to Mock PT tests. He did a total of 3 mock tests where MFR's were provided the outcome was as follows.

1. He did a walk test with a fitness specialist from the gym…. I administered a mock walk test for SSGT my husband. I recorded time and heart rate for each lap, results are as follows:
Lap one: Time 3:27 Heart Rate 134
Lap two: Time 6:55 Heart Rate 135
Lap three: Time 10:25 Heart Rate 131
Lap four: TIme 13:48 Heart Rate 133

2. He did a walk test with a PTL…..The purpose of this memorandum is to recap SSGT my husbands mock physical fitness test that I conducted on July 19, 2012. SSGT my husband completed the four lap walk in 13 minutes and 22 seconds. After completing his walk his heart rate was 141 beats per minute as displayed on the heart rate monitor he was wearing. ……(goes into the pushup portion of mock…get to later)

I have been through all required training and am a fully certified Physical Training Leader. The data provided is correct and accurate.

3. He did a walk test with a PTL….I administer a Mock PT test for SSGT my husband. I only administered the walk portion leaving out the pushup, sirup, and waist measurement sections. SSGT my husband completed the 1 mi walk in 13:41 with an average HR of 145. His total VO2 was 43.5 which is the above average for his age (30), the minimum being 38.

The test was administered per AFI 36-2905 Attachment 15 for the 1 mi timed walk test instructions.



 

TheNemos

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PEB Forum Veteran
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More to add....teehee too many characters.

_____________________________________________________

MFR fun stuff for Pushup portion of test:

Male FAC MFR reads……I was the timekeeper at this time of his test and I saw SSGT my husband perform his pushups. A few seconds in and I noticed SSGT my husband wasn't doing his pushups correctly. I also noticed counter/member was telling him to go lower since he was not going down at a 90 degree angle. I knew that he was frustrated since most of his pushups weren't counted by his counter. When I said "TIME" he came up to me and told me he was not being told what was wrong with his pushups therefore he wasn't able to make the necessary corrections. I told him the reason why wasn't doing a correct, 90 degree pushup was because he had his arms spread to far from each other which caused extra strain on his muscles. He then performed his sit-ups after that.

Based on these facts I concur with counter/member as to what happened during SSGT my husband's Fitness Assessment. Please Know I have 5 duty days to input his score and based on the evidence I will have to put it in.


*******Where do I start….he had time to review counter/member MFR before he wrote his own.
-This MFR was not supplied to my husband and kept from him until his Referral EPR 3 was sent to ADC, so he couldn't inform them of his anxiety for the walk portion.
-Per AFFIMS the score was inserted in 2 days after his test….so his 5 days to dispute never happened.
-My husband was corrected on his feet not being 12 inches together, not his 90 degree angle.
-Counter/member was not counting aloud or correcting him on his form.
-Again why are 2 FAC and PTL members (THE SAME ONES) only focusing on every aspect of my husband's PT test, when there were 13 other members (split in half for this portion of the test) that they should have split their concern over. Also during this portion of the test another member was having the same problem with their counter, so much so that their direct supervision who attended the PT test spoke out openly on their dissatisfaction. Not sure yet if they provided MFR's for that member, but sure they won't disclose that info.

Male PTL MFR reads…..During the pushup portion of the assessment, Counter/member was assigned as his counter. I heard counter/member counting SSGT member's pushups and stop at 10, then tell him he was not going down far enough. SSGT my husband was not doing correct pushups as directed by the instructional video/briefing. SSGT my husband seemed frustrated and asked what the counter was; Counter/member repeated 10. SSGT my husband argued a few seconds about the count then continued his assessment doing pushups with proper form. The final count was 27. After the pushup portion of the assessment SSGT my husband told us, the observers, that he though his counter wasn't counting all of his pushups. We told SSGT my husband that counter/member did count all correct pushups and he can write a statement on the back portion of his score sheet.

Although you could see SSGT my husband was very frustrated, I didn't hear him use foul language nor get unprofessional with the observers or his counter besides the short disagreement during his pushups. SSGT my husband didn't do more than 27 correct pushups during his assessment. I spoke to SSGT my husband after the assessment and recommended he practice his pushups with a closer stance, which should result in a higher pushup count.

*******Again with the 2 FAC and PTL members on my husband only.
-He was corrected on feet not 90 degree.
-Counter wasn't counting aloud until after 17.

Counter/Member MFR reads…..I was the counter for SSGT my husband during his PT assessment. While SSGT my husband was performing his pushups, I noticed after a count of 10 that he wasn't going down low enough. He was not leveling off at a ninety degree angle as the video instructed. I continued my count of 10 and told SSGT my husband that he wasn't going down low enough. This frustrated SSGT my husband since he believed his pushups were done correctly. Valuable seconds were lost as he argued his case. I counted a total of twenty seven pushups that were performed correctly and two other instructors agreed with my count.

******I don't know how he gets his correction of form as my husband remembers him by his head….then walking to his feet and stating his feet were too far apart.
-He also remembers being frustrated starting off as his counter was not counting aloud until count 17.
-Again with 3 members on 1 person.
-He fails to mention his conversation with my husband of "tell them I messed up" or include it in his MFR. With this discrepancy ADC advised my husband it was ok to contact counter/member and set up a meeting as long as his supervisor was there as a witness. My husband contacted counter/member and he agreed to meet at the food court :). A few moments later he called my husband and told him he would not meet him, my husband asked him why and the guy said a few things along the lines of there is really no reason to meet as his MFR states it all. My husband then said then why tell me to tell them I messed up….his response stuck with my husband…..I can't include that in an MFR now as my integrity will be questioned. The counter/member, then proceeded to contact his 1SGT and tell them my husband was bothering him….where my husband got a call and was told not to call him anymore….mind you there was only one call from my husband.

I know there are 2 AFI's on what was done wrong, but the MFR's on this one don't help.

___________________________________
Current actions taken:

We have filed with the IG, can't do anything the score was inputted, we have to contact AFBC.
We have contacted AFBC, could take 3-6 months for the outcome on if the score would be taken out.
We have tried to talk to chain of command, not feeling they are listening.
We are currently awaiting a board to determine his separation outcome could be 1 week to months.

If anyone has any advice or criticism we are all ears. We are prepared to do things both him as a member and myself as married to the military.
I know this is long, thank you for your time…..if anything I hope I have provided a good read :).
 

Jason Perry

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Bottom line, and I did not catch this from the post, is that if he has a condition that is already referred to MEB/IPEB, the PT failure does not matter. MEB/IPEB trumps other non-misconduct administrative separations. Does he have a disability, or is this just an administrative separation question?

If this is just a "pure" PT failure admin separation, then the issues are more complex.
 

TheNemos

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He was just MEB for sleep apnea. His med records are 3 inches thick from migraines, back pain that he gets at the onset of migraines, and anxiety. He's had the migraines since 2007 following a triple hernia repair surgery. No current MEB being processed.
 

Jason Perry

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He was just MEB for sleep apnea. His med records are 3 inches thick from migraines, back pain that he gets at the onset of migraines, and anxiety. He's had the migraines since 2007 following a triple hernia repair surgery. No current MEB being processed.
So, he had a MEB that said return to duty? Or is still in the process? Does he have limitations on AF Form 469? Has his health/conditions been looked at by HAWC?
 

TheNemos

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Yes for sleep apnea only, ending two days ago w/ return to duty.
Limitations on 469 are for 1 year... No pushups, no situps, no bending at the waist, no running more than 100 yards.
I'd have to look it up but he has been on more than 5 profiles in the past two years.
He usually can only walk w/o getting a migraines. Come PT time he kills himself and is down almost all month w/ 6-10 level migraines then he buckles and a profile is put into effect. Been like this for years now. Triggers are stress, hiking, biking, lifting things heavier then 25 pounds, bending at the waist, lack of sleep, playing w/ friends kids, anxiety, any exercise besides elliptical, house cleaning, working on cars.... Basically we watch a lot of movies and drive around alot.
 

Jason Perry

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Maybe he should look to seek full composite exemption- i.e., waiver of all components of PT, including height and weight. Bottom line, he needs to fight separation action. That aside, should he lose, he may have an argument that he should have been found unfit.

Complicated case on its face. I think he should seek legal counsel.
 

TheNemos

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After his 3rd PT fail they had a medical evaluation done by a member of our hospital and he said that as long as he's on the correct profile it shouldn't matter. I just got done flagging his medical records and in 2008 his neurologist had put in notes that if he continues to not show positive results from treatment they need to discuss MEB. His most recent neuro visit (new doctor Feb 2012) said that she can only exhaust a few more resources and that she believes sleep apnea might be a culprit, so we were waiting to see the results of the machine. So far because of this whole Separations he has been down 27 days in the past month just with stress induced migraines.

During his Sleep Apnea MEB the following day after it was sent to AFPC his PCM tried to add an addendum concerning the migraines since the neuro said they could be linked....its even documented in his file. Both his doctor and him were told they couldn't do any revisions, addendum's or recalls, since it was already sent to AFPC. His PCM is in the process of out processing to PCS any day now. When my husband went to PEBLO to find out the MEB for Apnea, he was told by the civilian PEBLO employee that since he's in the process of possible separations he should not push the issue of his migraine MEB....nice huh.

We wouldn't even know how to address his PCM or Neuro about overall exemption. We have an appointment on Tuesday with his Neuro so we hope to learn more on what she thinks.

Overall we just want him better. We were hoping to go about this separations and have it thrown out with how unjust the test was, but we are less than thrilled with the course thus far.

Oh and we are seeing ADC. We are considering outside legal, as its seeming we are going to get royally screwed on this one.
 

Jason Perry

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It is apparent that a lot has gone wrong and the case seems to be complicated (though, it should actually be straight forward if all of the players did the right thing).

I tend to think that there would not be much to made about challenging the PT test themselves. That is probably a futile route. But, it sounds like there is fertile grounds to go after the MEB/PEB issues.

Hope it all goes well!
 

TheNemos

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I thank you for your time and advise, I'm taking this situation more on a serious note as to considering the negative outcome versus the positive after our conversation. With that said I think we will start a post one the MEB side :). Can't thank you enough for your insight.
 
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