Rank reduction for PT fails During MEB and on profile exempting everything but Waist

medicalmystery

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Well it's "official" - My first shirt called me tonight *30 Jun 12* at 7:30pm to inform me he had checked his email and that the General (Demotion Approval Authority) had agreed with my CC to demote me yet for the second time. I have my unfit finding back and signed for not appealing the IPEB results, so this is just assinine. I blew up on my shirt for about 40 minutes how this wasn't right, he's like I'm with ya...but I told him no you're not no one in the chain of command is. If Anyone was on my side then this wouldn't have gotten to this point. He's like well there's always the AF Board of Corrections....I again just got angrier and angrier on the phone to the point I apologized and told him I wish he'd just notified me on Monday, especially since No way i could find a seamstress on Sunday, and the fact that this is a bunch of BS yet again, that I'll have to fight now 2 rank reductions. He's like well I wanted to give you some extra time to get your appeal ready. Again, To this I said the appeal, it's the same fucking thing i've been preaching since January 2011 - you know that and so does the CC - whatever I'll see you Monday after my 2 appointments and that'll be around 11am or there after.

VERY UNFUCKING HAPPY,
Klam
Keep your spirits up! I know it is frustrating, but keep holding on to hope knowing that it isn't totally over. If all else fails, the VA doesn't look at rank to determine VA benefits and pay. It goes to show you how some feel that there isn't life beyond the military and will try to make others' lives miserable. Then what happens after the military for them? They probably will live the same miserable lives they live now, and misery is the main culprit for many being assholes. Fight to the end, until it's time to lay your weapon, down, and in that event, know you tried everything within your means and you fought. Write a book, maybe because I can write several. Good luck!
 

klamsnacks

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Yeah Mystery, I'm just astonished it has gone this far for as long almost 1 year and 6 months with my condition. One would think it should be obvious that my condition caused my failures and that my CC could have been more reasonable. Either way officially NOW an A1C.

Klam
 

Dfree454

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Well, it's sad how some are picked and chosen to "make" tape after failing height and weight requirements. I have seen many Soldiers, not even on profile, with obvious height and weight noncompliance issues "mysteriously" make tape all of sudden at the discretion of the command. Regarding the different metabolisms and current height and weight requirements, the military almost damn near promotes anorexia and other eating disorders for some people just to make those requirements, especially for curvier or shorter women. If you tall, with greater than a slim build, sometimes that can even hurt you on the scale.

Funny you say that. An AD AF friend of mine was just told by a Full Bird Med Doc to starve himself... Word for word. Starve yourself if you want to stay in...
 

medicalmystery

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Yeah Mystery, I'm just astonished it has gone this far for as long almost 1 year and 6 months with my condition. One would think it should be obvious that my condition caused my failures and that my CC could have been more reasonable. Either way officially NOW an A1C.

Klam
I concur, it should be obvious! I think they are trying to meet their numbers in reduction. Well, in the Army medical treatment system, it seems like they think Ibuprofen and antibiotics are a cure-all. If your eye is hanging out of the socket, take an Ibuprofen for pain and some Amoxicillin or Penicillin or some other type of Cillin for possible infection, follow up in the ER if your eye ball comes back out of the socket before you get your appointment to the eye specialist, and only, if not during the scheduled sick call hours (600-700)!! Oh yeah, in the meantime, while you're awaiting to see a specialist, make sure you pass that PT test. Just keep your head back while doing pushups, and go slower during the situps and run so that your eyeball won't fall back out during the test. All you need is 180, right? Who cares about your command in your ass because you barely pass, just pass and let them know that your dangling eyeball kept you from performing at your maximum. I'm sure when the dangling eyeball issue is resolved, you will get that 300! Then when you see the specialist three to four weeks later, you may only see a PA who may or may not know what the hell s(he) is talking about!!! More ibuprofen, more Cillin, and a walk at your own pace profile??????? If you have to have surgery to reinsert your eyeball, here is a 1 day con leave form and a 2-day profile. Why complain? Military healthcare is FREE:eek:!!!
 

medicalmystery

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Funny you say that. An AD AF friend of mine was just told by a Full Bird Med Doc to starve himself... Word for word. Starve yourself if you want to stay in...
I am quite sure this is not an isolated occurrence. Now, that doctor is promoting a mental disorder?????? But, from my visits to several AF and Army bases, I think the Army has more overweight soldiers that anyone. There are about at least 75-85 in my company alone. Could be more!!! I think, I am 1 of about 5 (estimated) females in my company that did not have to get taped. In all fairness, it could be because there are more soldiers in the Army than all the other components combined! Or it could be that I am at a base where it seems like the only recreation is food and making babies!
 

hawkdrivermtp

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I concur, it should be obvious! I think they are trying to meet their numbers in reduction. Well, in the Army medical treatment system, it seems like they think Ibuprofen and antibiotics are a cure-all. If your eye is hanging out of the socket, take an Ibuprofen for pain and some Amoxicillin or Penicillin or some other type of Cillin for possible infection, follow up in the ER if your eye ball comes back out of the socket before you get your appointment to the eye specialist, and only, if not during the scheduled sick call hours (600-700)!! Oh yeah, in the meantime, while you're awaiting to see a specialist, make sure you pass that PT test. Just keep your head back while doing pushups, and go slower during the situps and run so that your eyeball won't fall back out during the test. All you need is 180, right? Who cares about your command in your ass because you barely pass, just pass and let them know that your dangling eyeball kept you from performing at your maximum. I'm sure when the dangling eyeball issue is resolved, you will get that 300! Then when you see the specialist three to four weeks later, you may only see a PA who may or may not know what the hell s(he) is talking about!!! More ibuprofen, more Cillin, and a walk at your own pace profile??????? If you have to have surgery to reinsert your eyeball, here is a 1 day con leave form and a 2-day profile. Why complain? Military healthcare is FREE:eek:!!!
I hear this crap all the time. I take offense because I am in fact one who had a serious eye injury and lost my career as a pilot due to this injury. Before you speak, be reasonable and mature about it. If you had a dangling eye ball, you would be at an ER and this command giving you crap abut PT would not even be an issue. Ibuprofen has its benefits and when a soldier comes in for a sprain or swelling, usually Ibuprofen is justified, just as you mentioned the antibiotics for fighting infection. Sick call hours are in place not to interfere with normal duty day hours. If you are found too sick to be at work, you get your prescriptions and head home. But if you are seriously injured, Sick Call is not where you need to go. Acute care and ER clinics are where you go for injuries such as that. Too many soldiers abuse the system and on a case by case basis, if you need a stronger medicine or more time off, then simply request it but be prepared to explain why you need something out of the norm. If your profile does not match your injury then you probably need to get that adjusted and again, be prepared to give reason. Most health care providers are willing to correct or give additional days on meds, profles, and con leave if you truly need it, but complaining about how you had to hold up your head during pushups during PT on a forum wont help you. Again, go to the ER when you have a serious injury. Sick Call is not called the ER for a reason. You need to make sure your profile matches your limitations. Yeah the doctor can write out whatever, but you should review it and if it doesn't fit the injury then speak up then. Don't wait until you get back to your unit on the day of a PT test to say something. Ever wonder why sick call is always packed on days of PT tests or after long weekends?
 

medicalmystery

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I hear this crap all the time. I take offense because I am in fact one who had a serious eye injury and lost my career as a pilot due to this injury. Before you speak, be reasonable and mature about it. If you had a dangling eye ball, you would be at an ER and this command giving you crap abut PT would not even be an issue. Ibuprofen has its benefits and when a soldier comes in for a sprain or swelling, usually Ibuprofen is justified, just as you mentioned the antibiotics for fighting infection. Sick call hours are in place not to interfere with normal duty day hours. If you are found too sick to be at work, you get your prescriptions and head home. But if you are seriously injured, Sick Call is not where you need to go. Acute care and ER clinics are where you go for injuries such as that. Too many soldiers abuse the system and on a case by case basis, if you need a stronger medicine or more time off, then simply request it but be prepared to explain why you need something out of the norm. If your profile does not match your injury then you probably need to get that adjusted and again, be prepared to give reason. Most health care providers are willing to correct or give additional days on meds, profles, and con leave if you truly need it, but complaining about how you had to hold up your head during pushups during PT on a forum wont help you. Again, go to the ER when you have a serious injury. Sick Call is not called the ER for a reason. You need to make sure your profile matches your limitations. Yeah the doctor can write out whatever, but you should review it and if it doesn't fit the injury then speak up then. Don't wait until you get back to your unit on the day of a PT test to say something. Ever wonder why sick call is always packed on days of PT tests or after long weekends?
Hawkdrivermpt,
WOW! I can't help if YOU are offended, but I SPEAK from my experience-and NOT YOURS or anyone else's. FYI-I am vision impaired because of the military and lack of proper treatment, so don't include "before you speak" in a response. You may want to move to a country that does not have freedom of speech. One of the very freedoms, that we as AMERICAN soldiers, sacrifice, fight, bleed, die, and live for. If my remark was vulgar or obscene, then that may be more prone to offense. Life is subjective and can be viewed as an offense. Someone is bound to be offended and I don't ask for additional time or request additional days off as it does not apply in my case due to continued con leave. I have had to escort BLEEDING AND SERIOUSLY INJURED soldiers that are returned to duty (actually one soldier's head was still bleeding and he was moving furniture from the barracks in the hot sun on medications just released from the ER. FYI-I went to the ER for a serious condition, and was released, with antibiotics and IBUPROFEN only to have to be hospitalized in a CIVILIAN hospital for a week. SO YOU MAY WANT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS TO OTHERS. Just because you don't hear of certain issues or are not exposed to them, doesn't mean they don't occur. Oh, and FYI my experience resulted in a follow up-which is required by GOING TO SICK CALL TO BE SCHEDULED AN APPOINTMENT! As an ending FYI, many injuries are worsened due to a PT test, and I'm sure commands causing soldiers to violate their profiles is not an isolated event. To answer your question about the sick call being packed on PT tests or after long weekends, no, I don't know, never been there to see it. Even despite my health conditions and impairments, I have never failed a PT test. I respect your opinion, learn to respect that of others. Good day!
 

klamsnacks

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Hawkendrive and Medicalmystery - I think both points are taken out of context - and I do agree - you're never going please everyone - so we should not be taking offense to certain explanations of cases even in their most dubious ways of being described. I think the main take away here is that we all are really going through tough times and as these forums allow us to vent in anonymity sometimes we get carried away. I for one, can say this about the USAF without question or hesitation - Vitamin M (Motrin Ibuprofen whatever) is used way to often for things an outside doctor would never suggest. I think the sarcastic nature of medicalmystery's post was again taken a little to personal for you hawken being that you had a serious eye injury - but it wasn't intended to be an attack on you. And medical - I'm pretty sure we all know that WE signed up to fight for freedoms such as freedom of speech!! Let's not start quoting the constitution!!

=P
Klam
 

medicalmystery

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Hawkendrive and Medicalmystery - I think both points are taken out of context - and I do agree - you're never going please everyone - so we should not be taking offense to certain explanations of cases even in their most dubious ways of being described. I think the main take away here is that we all are really going through tough times and as these forums allow us to vent in anonymity sometimes we get carried away. I for one, can say this about the USAF without question or hesitation - Vitamin M (Motrin Ibuprofen whatever) is used way to often for things an outside doctor would never suggest. I think the sarcastic nature of medicalmystery's post was again taken a little to personal for you hawken being that you had a serious eye injury - but it wasn't intended to be an attack on you. And medical - I'm pretty sure we all know that WE signed up to fight for freedoms such as freedom of speech!! Let's not start quoting the constitution!!

=P
Klam
I'm sure WE all didn't sign up for the same reasons. Freedom of speech was not referenced to quote the constitution, but as a tactful way of me saying that I can basically, say want I want to say on the forum, even if it encompasses exaggerated sarcasm. Irregardless, thanks for aiding to the mediation. Please let me know if there is a forum or thread on forum etiquette.
 

klamsnacks

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I'm sure WE all didn't sign up for the same reasons. Freedom of speech was not referenced to quote the constitution, but as a tactful way of me saying that I can basically, say want I want to say on the forum, even if it encompasses exaggerated sarcasm. Irregardless, thanks for aiding to the mediation. Please let me know if there is a forum or thread on forum etiquette.
LOL - no problems I was just being a smart ass - cause indeed I am and Can!! no worries

Klam
 

medicalmystery

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I hear this crap all the time. I take offense because I am in fact one who had a serious eye injury and lost my career as a pilot due to this injury. Before you speak, be reasonable and mature about it. If you had a dangling eye ball, you would be at an ER and this command giving you crap abut PT would not even be an issue. Ibuprofen has its benefits and when a soldier comes in for a sprain or swelling, usually Ibuprofen is justified, just as you mentioned the antibiotics for fighting infection. Sick call hours are in place not to interfere with normal duty day hours. If you are found too sick to be at work, you get your prescriptions and head home. But if you are seriously injured, Sick Call is not where you need to go. Acute care and ER clinics are where you go for injuries such as that. Too many soldiers abuse the system and on a case by case basis, if you need a stronger medicine or more time off, then simply request it but be prepared to explain why you need something out of the norm. If your profile does not match your injury then you probably need to get that adjusted and again, be prepared to give reason. Most health care providers are willing to correct or give additional days on meds, profles, and con leave if you truly need it, but complaining about how you had to hold up your head during pushups during PT on a forum wont help you. Again, go to the ER when you have a serious injury. Sick Call is not called the ER for a reason. You need to make sure your profile matches your limitations. Yeah the doctor can write out whatever, but you should review it and if it doesn't fit the injury then speak up then. Don't wait until you get back to your unit on the day of a PT test to say something. Ever wonder why sick call is always packed on days of PT tests or after long weekends?
Upon realizing that you have been offering advice and response to questions I have asked during my MEB, I sent you a private message. Since we both have eye injuries, don't take my exaggeration as an offense, but agree to disagree.
 

hawkdrivermtp

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Upon realizing that you have been offering advice and response to questions I have asked during my MEB, I sent you a private message. Since we both have eye injuries, don't take my exaggeration as an offense, but agree to disagree.
No problem. I was downrange when I had my injury and did not have the luxury of going to an ER and was stuck with the military docs who failed to do their job and get me the care I needed. I did lose my vision, but I know without a doubt that if I would have been stateside, I would have been at my nearest ER. Never once was I given Motrin to handle my eye issues and not once did my unit expect me to go out and do a PT test with my injury.

You are welcome to state your opinions as am I. I try to not pass judgement on anybody on these forums and give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but I do see those who clearly abuse this system and are making it worse for others. Some are active in these forums and I see many each day I am on post or even in the unit. I don't call anyone out though, as that is for their docs to determine. But I have seen, with my good eye, those who use canes in uniform and produce a limp, then are at the PX with their friends or family on the weekend without that cane and wearing their flippy floppies walking around perfectly fine. Come Monday, back to the cane and limp. I just get tired of that type of nonsense.

I don't feel I gave bad advice when mentioning going to an ER or Acute Care Clinic for an eye injury. Most good hospitals will have either an eye doc on duty or on call in the event of an injury and that goes for almost all medical specialties. Unfortunately when I was in Iraq, there was one Ophthalmologist to go around for the entire country. If I had been medevac'd, I would have received that care, however, my local clinic mis-diagnosed me and gave me Roxicet and a bunch of ophthalmic ointments with a profile and quarters. Command pressure left me in country against the advice of my PCM, but as a Test Pilot and helicopter Maintenance Manager, they wanted to take their chances with me.

Sorry, the whole dangling of the eye doing push-ups was what pushed me to respond. I know the military will forever prescribe Motrin to those who initially come to sick call, but before I lost flight status, I had little choice as to what meds I could take. Narcotics are rarely prescribed because in my profession, those meds, do not mix well with helicopter maintenance or flying. Operating any kind of machinery using these meds is ill-advised and if something were to happen while Joe was high on Roxicet, then there would be some legal issues. Motrin is safe and if someone needs something a little stronger, then by all means, request it, but there is a reason it is handed out like candy. It is a good medication to start with and safe at that.

I know I have given you advice in the past and wish you the best of luck during your MEB. Feel free to use your freedom of speech, I was only using mine, even though I didn't even think of it in those terms.
 

medicalmystery

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I'm sorry you lost your vision. Hopefully, with the help of my neuro-ophthalmologist and retina specialist, I won't have to lose mine. I'm not insensitive by any means! Trust I'm probably one of the most sensitive and empathetic people on this forum. Unfortunately, frustration and medical mishap may cause it to appear that way at times. After undergoing 5 surgeries in a 6 month period, including 4 major surgeries, I get that way at times. Thanks, for sharing. Truce it is! Be blessed.
 

medicdad73

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There is always the option for a article 138 complaint. In my case I had too, I had open heart surgery and they still pushed to have me PT tested the day I came off con leave. I hadn't even seen my PCM to get a DLC, but my PCM was pissed and gave me one cause he knew they were wrong. If you ask for a redress, it might change the factors, in my case, it didn't and a full investigation is on the way. I am 109 days from terminal leave and they are still trying to bone me, why, I don't know, maybe the black sheep is the correct answer.
 

eagleone

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Army APFT requirement is that a APFT (for record) CAN NOT be given until after a recovery period after coming off a profile. The last I checked it was 2 days recovery, for every one day on profile. That is nuts.
 

jimmyz701

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First post here so be gentle. I am a First Sergeant and have been on a profile for over a year, waist tape only awaiting my MEB completion. In this time i have been on numerous medications, absolutely no PT whatsoever and even work only half days while awaiting my neck surgery. In this time not only have i maintained my waist measurement standards but have also managed to lose 20+ pounds.
I manage my weight through dieting. I don't starve myself and i don't "suffer" in any way. What i have seen as a First Sergeant is people on waivers who completely give up on themselves and think they can keep living a lifestyle of eating that they are used to. As leadership we understand some initial weight gain while your lifestyle is changing and your body is adjusting to new medication, what we don't understand is 4,5,6,7...failures where the member has had upwards of a year to make the adjustments and hasn't.
With my case specifically, any weight gain on my part would have worsened my condition so that was an extra motivator to keep an eye on what i ate. As i went through my VA evaluations it was also noted that my weight was not a factor on my condition.
As with anyone's situation what you see on the forums here is one side of the story. Before any of us go jousting windmills in the name of someone's perceived wrong i would collect all the facts from both sides. From what i've seen as a shirt there is usually something more to the story, in the end you control your destiny. If your weight is within your control then you should adequately adjust your diet to accommodate your new restrictions.
 

TSgt Twitch

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First post here so be gentle. I am a First Sergeant and have been on a profile for over a year, waist tape only awaiting my MEB completion. In this time i have been on numerous medications, absolutely no PT whatsoever and even work only half days while awaiting my neck surgery. In this time not only have i maintained my waist measurement standards but have also managed to lose 20+ pounds.
I manage my weight through dieting. I don't starve myself and i don't "suffer" in any way. What i have seen as a First Sergeant is people on waivers who completely give up on themselves and think they can keep living a lifestyle of eating that they are used to. As leadership we understand some initial weight gain while your lifestyle is changing and your body is adjusting to new medication, what we don't understand is 4,5,6,7...failures where the member has had upwards of a year to make the adjustments and hasn't.
With my case specifically, any weight gain on my part would have worsened my condition so that was an extra motivator to keep an eye on what i ate. As i went through my VA evaluations it was also noted that my weight was not a factor on my condition.
As with anyone's situation what you see on the forums here is one side of the story. Before any of us go jousting windmills in the name of someone's perceived wrong i would collect all the facts from both sides. From what i've seen as a shirt there is usually something more to the story, in the end you control your destiny. If your weight is within your control then you should adequately adjust your diet to accommodate your new restrictions.
Very well put post, if does give a perspective, all be it the "party line" is not generally welcomed here. I have had a great experience when it comes to my command chain and my disabilities-CC exempting me from PT test's, ignoring the failures etc. BUT I am a "good 'ol boy' club member with my management and have busted my arse mentally and physically to keep that status. after my last surgery which left me completely disabled, I failed the tape- CC had it removed and told me to loose the best I could.
It took 6 more months of nothing but diet and then some "extra help" from the pharmacy to get me to loose even the 1.5 inches I had to loose. (was 39 had to get to 37.5 6 months prior to the surgery I was 36.5) I actually had to loose 15lb through diet for that 1.5 inches which included A LOT of muscle tone having to be shed on top of the fat. (normally for my size 4-5lbs=1 inch).
The problem the majority have on here is Un supportive chains of command, a chronic misunderstanding of regulations by CC's and shirts and the sheer stupidity of the pt test scoring for people on profiles, on top of the profiles in the AF especially because the doc's/pa have their hands tied in regards to waits measurement. I.E. in my case my right hip hematoma/swelling caused the measurement around my right side to be 1-2 inches greater than my left. I even showed my docs and the CMO, they said they agreed I should be exempt from the waist, but since it was not an abdomen surgery or pregnancy they couldn't do it.

I find a certain irony in that by VA standards for 13 months following my hip replacement I am 100% disabled, I have a permanent handicap plaque for my vehicle yet i have to take a PT TEST. If that does not scream stupidity to someone in "charge" then they have had waaay to much of the blue/green Kool-aid.

Yes many give up-its part of the process of becoming handicap/disabled/crippled whatever. So on top of being disabled which causes depression, anxiety etc. You have medications which just about everything for pain or depression causes not only weight gain but hunger and constipation. You have in most cases a severe change in physical activity levels etc. and the services think 42 days is enough to turn it around-heck my weight did not crescendo until 4-5 months after the surgery.

So now by regulations/trends due to budget cut backs and mentality of commanders and especially their "advisors" such as shirts and junior officers the CC feels trhey have to do something to someone failing pt tests, so they remvoe rank- oh yeah great plan- Take someone who is crippled and depressed and punish them. I am not a mental health professional but it seems to me its the mentality of our leadership that is failing our peoples and causing the suicide rate, the poor retention of highly qualified persons vs the slugs that do not know there jobs but can pass a pt test and ditch work a week a month for honor guard etc. I have lost more true "firewall 5" technicians to PT failures and general disgust over policies in the last 2 years than in my other 14yrs combined. I never knew more than 1 or 2 troops being med boarded at a time until the last 2yrs as well. now my unit has 11-12 in the process and probally twice as many completed/preparing to enter in the next few months. LEADERSHIP IS FAILING ITS PEOPLE AND ESPECIALLY ITS WOUNDED because of the climate the draw dawns/budgets and OPS tempo created.
 

grizz13

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Thank you jimmyz for commenting on this website, it is rare to have an AD Senior NCO come on and talk about their difficulties too. You, just now validified what we all have been saying about maintaining the weight standards no matter what, if you can do it. I understand there are those like yourself that have to keep that image, but there are others that abuse the fact that they are in a postition of power and use the do as I say not as I do mentality. Again I really appreciate it!

Amen Twitch!!!!
 

jimmyz701

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I am currently at home recovering from a C4-C7 fusion and doing well. I was visited yesterday by my command chain to "see how i was doing" and personally i can say i was humbled by their sincerity. It seems more and more rare to have leadership who is involved with your personal well being, and for this i am grateful. For those of you out there who are dealing with sub-par leadership always remember to be professional and situations/people change over time and that not all of us in that role are out simply to make our numbers look good.
I will never make Senior Master Sergeant and that is fine with me, i've made some incredible NCOs and that is my biggest accomplishment. Maybe one day one of those NCOs will be CMSAF and readjust the "system" to realize its greatest asset is its people. Take care of them and their families and your life as a leader will be a cakewalk.
As some of you go through tough times with rank reductions/attempts to force you out during your MEB and PT failures remember to address your issues professionally and to the ones responsible. Everyone has a boss and sometimes you may need to bend their ear because as leadership sometimes we may simply not be aware of your total situation and need more facts.
So keep the 3 P's in order, patience/professionalism/and preparedness at the forefront. Document everything, always keep a cool head and recognize that dealing with multiple agencies and chains of command takes time.
 
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