YetAnother Admin Action/ MEB Question

Going through this crap also. In September I was informed that I was to be involuntarily separated due to failing my pt test. I was given my medical papers and told to report to my PCM later that day. When I got to my PCM I told him what was going on and he looked through my medical files. He seen that I have been on a profile for almost 2 years straight and said, that due to my medical conditions, it would seem that my medical conditions are keeping me from completing the pt test. He then said he would not let my squadron separate me because he believes my medical conditions need to be looked at further and that he would recommend a MEB on me.

So I took it back to my first shirt and gave him the papers. He looked them over and once he seen, that my doctor didn't approve me for separation, he flipped and ask me "Who signed this?" and "Was this a really a doctor?" I told him my doctor put his phone number on there if he needed to call him. The shirt then asked me "well what do you have to do to get cleared?" I told him I needed to see a few specialists first and he asked me "Well how long is this going to take?" I was shocked, could they make it anymore obvious that they wanted me out of there sight?

So a couple weeks went by and I scheduled my appts but they were still a month away. Well in the middle of October I was called to the commanders office. I was informed I was being recommended for demotion for the pt tests failures. I quickly went to my ADC and talked to them. I explained everything to them and they helped me write my rebuttal. I included in the rebuttal information about why I failed my pt tests. For the 1st failure I missed it by .05 points and this was my fault as I didn't prepare for it. My 2nd failure was not a complete test because during the run I had to stop and go to the ER. After the second failure I was put on a profile and had a profile for the next couple of tests. I explained that my profile only allowed me to do the waist component and nothing else. I explained that when you have to do only the waist component you have to have a 37 to pass. My waist was between 37.5-39 so I couldn't pass the tests.

Well after I turned my rebuttal in, I was called to the shirts office about 1 week later. He informed me the commander is still going to go through with the recommendation. So today I found out that the MSG commander has approved the recommendation and I am now demoted. The letter from the Staff judge clearly states they are aware of my medical condition, that they are aware of my MEB, they are aware I was on a profile for the majority of my pt tests, and they still are punishing me.

To me this seems I am being punished because my squadron failed to be able to separate me and they are pissed. I do plan on seeing the IG and,if needed, going higher then that. Hell I don't have anything else to loose and I won't stop fighting this.

Some more background also;

About 20 people were given involuntary sep papers at the same time as me, three people (included me were not allowed to separate) The rest of the people have been waiting over a month now to get there out-processing papers. None of the people getting out were demoted. I know 3 people who are being allowed to stay in, without demotion, until there DOS comes around in about 3-4 months.

I will say this, after this experience, I can't wait to eventually get out because if this is the way the Air Force wants to act then I don't want any part of it. Anyway, it felt good to vent about this to people going through the same stuff. Good luck to everyone.
 
I might be going through a situation similiar to yours. My MEB package is at the Baltamore VA for review before it heads back to AFPC so I know I will not be receiving a return to duty finding. I am waist only and because of the Zoloft + Abilify + Effexor ER I have gained close to 50 pounds. I have failed 6 PT tests and have another scheduled for next week. After my last PT test my CC changed the LOR to a LOC and said he expects me to lose 5 pounds. If I go in there and have not lost the weight I am beeing told I will be recommended for demotion! When my MEB comes back with either seperation of medical retirement I will have to request a "rank determination"! After my last failure my CC asked what I was doing exercise wise and when I told him I walk on the track/treadmill, ride the bike or do the elliptical he gave me a ration of shit saying that according to my profile that was in violation. So I had to get with my PCM & Public Health for clarification, basically I am not even supposed to walk more than 150 meters at a time! I am on a strict 1600 calorie a day, and I now walk on the treadmill exclusively. Are they expecting me to work a miracle or starve myself to try and lose weight?
 
Joey Smith said:
Some more background also;

About 20 people were given involuntary sep papers at the same time as me, three people (included me were not allowed to separate) The rest of the people have been waiting over a month now to get there out-processing papers. None of the people getting out were demoted. I know 3 people who are being allowed to stay in, without demotion, until there DOS comes around in about 3-4 months.
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Did the 20 folks you mention have profiles or need an MEB? If some of them do, can you have them get in touch with me? They can use the contact form, or use my email- [email protected].
 
So it's been a long road that still winding but slowly coming to resolution.
My MEB package with VA Exams is on it's way to Randolph as of today. I signed the document not requesting an impartial review, but now wish i hadn't. As i've looked through the package there are some issues i've come up with concerning the VA Doctor that examined me. I dont think they'll have much bearing but still never know and wouldnt take anything for granted with this case as it's been one uphill battle after another. SO here goes.

1 (VA Doc) - My doctor wrote that unable to specifically state how many days of incapacitation he has had in the last 12 days but he believes it is 30. LOL - so he swapped his numbers but that's not even the best part, so he asked me first over the year, and i said ok lets see i had 2 months convo leave after surgery, i had 2 weeks after x procedure, 3 days after y procedure, he got adimant that convo leave didnt count. So finally said how about the last 30 days. I said 15 days not 12, my quick reaction was based on knowing currently on 4 hour restricted duty days. and cut the month in half. But I digress.

2 (VA Doc) - Later in his notes on ROM, verbatim this is how it's stated. "Lumbar spine flexion is 0-10 with pain, extension is at 0 degrees, lateral flexion right and left is at 0, and rotation right and left is 0-4 with pain. There is no additional loss of range of motion after repetitive use." He also listed the surgical scar from the 2 part ALIF Fusion i had on S1-L5-L4 as 1 x 12 CM with pain and discoloration scarring.

SO that is the VA physical examiner reports among other items. Next comes the Commanders letter.

1 (CC Comments) - So commander lists Effect on Unit Mission as piss poor for a lack of better terms all conditions and abilities to perform job as non-productivity. Unable to perform routine duties in a timely manner due to position he is required to be in to accomplish task. Also taking medication that can prevent him staying focused , concentration ion task hampered, and restricts operating of motor vehicle. Safety concerns, all restrictions imposed and medications make any task virtually impossible to accomplish. Pretty much follows the AF Standard Example letter for identifying all conditions and problems they have on unit, manpower, and effectiveness. It's when we get to his last statements that I grew slightly angry, but not surprised. As the UNIT is trying to admin separate me for PT failures of which 4,5,6,7 are on the record for my back but not listed properly in my AF408 due to my doctor not rating em that way as in previous posts.

2 (CC Comments) - Commanders Recommendation -

It is my opinion that SrA xxxxx should be returned to limited duty and be processed for administrative separation; his inability to maintain AF fitness standards has rendered him ineffective as an Airman in the U.S. Air Force. He should be able to work his medical evaluation after separation with the Department of Veterans Affairs for possible disability. The Air Force as well as my unit is in need of Airman that are productive and that can act in the capacity that we require to complete our very unique mission. We need someone that can continue to serve with the rigors of deployments, the mission in garrison, and the needs of the Air Force while being fit for continued military service. I do not feel that SrA xxxxxx fits that description.

WOW WHAT A DOUCHEBAG, I about wanted to go into his office unannounced to day and ask him are you ****ing kidding me!

And now for the best part of all, my PCM's Narrative Summary

1 (PCM Comments) - "Unfortunately, throughoutt the process the patient has undergone disciplinary action with his unit that has resulte in loss of rank."

Without admitting it - he basically admitted my AF108 should have stated my condition caused my failures, but he never did, should i try and have those PT tests thrown out and have my SSgt stripe re-evaluated? Just not sure, i'm like everyone else ready for this to be done and over. Even on my 4 hour duty day, i've now been ordered to work it over an 8hr day so i work 2 hours leave for 4 and come back for 2 more. This is harder to maintain than when i was working 4 hours straight, but the commander didn't approve that schedule. Right now all i do since all jobs where taken away from me - is read the net and google shit all day. Its utterly assinine and i want it to be over with.
 
Also, yes i was eventually demoted, I appealed the demotion - and it went to the same individuals that approved it the first time, i think except they had now been promoted to higher ranks. I am confused on this as well as my ADC says they dont know what else can be done, as the appeal process has already been concluded, even though they are the ones that should have sent it to the right people to begin with. Either way, anyone know if this is something i can even appeal or seek reversal on considering the time that's passed? I was demoted in July 2011.
 
shameless bump looking for help on my flexion scores and possible ratings...not quite sure how to read it...would it be 40-50% ??
 
OK - So this situation is just getting out of hand. I have a meeting with my CC on Tuesday - the kinda guy who's GunHo on PT but doesnt actually do much of it cause he too has exemptions, and it's for my 8th PT Failure in a Row. I'm on Profile for over a year now, limited duty hours to 4 per day, cant lift more than 10lbs and walk more than 1/10th of a mile. Also must still wear a back brace after surgery, and can't sit or stand for longer than 20 mins at a time. Well, now i'm getting an LOR and he's trying to bust me down AGAIN from SrA to A1C this time while still have my MEB and Admin Discharge ongoing. I just dont get how he can do this. I've got over a year's worth of documentation lined up to take to the IG after my Tuesday's meeting, as I'm filling a formal complaint. I feel i've been singled out by my CC since they originally didn't have "Documentation" on me when i first injured my back and failed PT test back in January of last year, they've rung me out with paperwork and are using it as their proof of how bad of an airman i am. They took ALL my duties and additional ones away leaving me absolutely NOTHING to do but play on google all day for my get this...2 hr shift's since the commander is in charge of my duty hours now not my supervisor. I work 2 on 4 off 2 on, over the course of an 8 hr day. If i have medical appointments or mandatory squadron ones, they must be made during my off time. If they fall in line with my work hours, i'm expected to come in early or work my 4 hours after, even if the appointment is for 4 hrs. LOL - these guys are geniuses, in their ability to get everyone to agree with them. But my CC also feels i should be returned to limited service, and be admin separated...WTF how does that help his cause and mine. He doesn't agree with me or my psychiatrist prescribed medication Cymbalta causes weight gain. Nor that i have any lasting effects of double spinal fusion, of which he said i should have been back to work after 4 weeks, but after 8 weeks he refused to sign the Convo. Leave form, forcing my surgeon to give in to the 4 hr restrictions. NOW i'm just shocked they can even attempt to do this while the MEB package is still on going, and i think the admin sep got thrown out, as i recieved an email telling me my final date of separation would be 10 Aug 12, but then 2 days later, i recieved a call and email stating that that was in error, it would be 15 July 2015 (My original DOS) I"m so at a loss of understanding this situation, I've read every AFI, quoted them in every rebutile, and still everyone just says you know the rules, you've failed a PT test it's your fault. I cant see how it's justifiable, and legal at this point. My PCM refuses to fill out a AF108 or whatever it is - correctly, still claims that there is NOTHING WRONG preventing Fitness Assesment success that wasn't already listed in a profile. I know i looked in the mirror the other day and truly am starting to look like a sitting president going grey at 34 years of age, this stress is outrageous, and seems a gross abuse of power on my CC's part.

Thanks for reading and any help would be appreciated.
Klam
 
I saw Congress man and IG. They can take your rank but if you MEB goes through you'll get your rank back. Also your situation sounds funny. You chain of command didn't follow the rules for punishment/corrective action in the AFI. From my experience if they don't follow it they can't skip steps. i've seen someone fail 6 tests and have to get a LOR because no one ever wrote on. Has to start from the supervisor, then LOR from CC, then LOR UIF, Admin action. there are other options but theses are the common steps. I lost my strip but they won't touch me since i'm going through the MEB now. A guy got admin hold for a MEB here and was getting a free paycheck til the MEB went though. Well either way good luck with you ordeal. Sounds like your leadership doesn't care. thats a problem with Leaders today i think.
 
This is my second stripe they're trying to take - and yes they didn't follow procedure. I called them out on it and have a signed letter or retainability after my 4th pt test in 24 month period, where commander chose to retain me, then on the 5th Which should be discharge, but they couldn't cause of the MEB - they took my rank from SSgt to SrA - but now with my 8th PT test failure they're pushing for SrA to A1C - which seems like BS, due to the fact that the only reason they can do this is cause the MEB / Administrative Separation hasn't gone thru yet or i'd already be out. I spoke to my cheif and he said that more than likely i'll be retired at current grade not highest held. I dont know where the division line is for this and have tried to find out but no one knows and the AFI's dont specify what qualifies someone for either. Thanks for your input Firedawg!
 
So given my LOR and Reduction in Rank paperwork today (8th PT failure in a row - 5th while on current profile), without ability to comment on either. Commander was very stern that if i fail my upcoming May PT test harsher punishment will follow. What a joke this guy - Either way it's off to both IG's offices tomorrow (Yes I have two - A Numbered Air Force one, and base level) and then ADC, then seek a meeting with the Med Group Commander, followed by Physical Therapy - YAY!!
 
firedawg225 said:
I saw Congress man and IG. They can take your rank but if you MEB goes through you'll get your rank back. Also your situation sounds funny. You chain of command didn't follow the rules for punishment/corrective action in the AFI. From my experience if they don't follow it they can't skip steps. i've seen someone fail 6 tests and have to get a LOR because no one ever wrote on. Has to start from the supervisor, then LOR from CC, then LOR UIF, Admin action. there are other options but theses are the common steps. I lost my strip but they won't touch me since i'm going through the MEB now. A guy got admin hold for a MEB here and was getting a free paycheck til the MEB went though. Well either way good luck with you ordeal. Sounds like your leadership doesn't care. thats a problem with Leaders today i think.
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Re-read the AFI - unfortunately lack of action on their part is not their fault, and they can skip steps based on history of the case. Either way, the commander wouldn't even let me speak to him about this - it was all to the point, and now i've got my 3 days to rebutile. He as the CC should have stopped worrying about his numbers and dealt with this situation a year ago. Now i'm in MEB/IPEB limbo.
 
klamsnacks said:
Re-read the AFI - unfortunately lack of action on their part is not their fault, and they can skip steps based on history of the case. Either way, the commander wouldn't even let me speak to him about this - it was all to the point, and now i've got my 3 days to rebutile. He as the CC should have stopped worrying about his numbers and dealt with this situation a year ago. Now i'm in MEB/IPEB limbo.
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**UPDATE**(to anyone still paying attention)

As my request for an informal hearing was slightly altered to meet the commanders schedule, it was postponed to next Tues. I have since turned in my over 500 pages of documentation since Jan 2011 to the IG and filed a formal complaint. I had the complaint ready and spoke with IG, but had them wait pending the outcome of my informal hearing, but the Friday that was to occur, my commander had an outbriefing, then a squadron burger burn (celebratory), and then had to go on leave out of state for a son's graduation. I decided to press with my complaint at that point as my needs didn't "Fit into his schedule".

NOW - my rebutal will be the topic of discussion but, we had to schedule it for next week due to my ADC Counsel not being available this week, ...curious I asked my shirt my counsel, and he said yes the CC will have his JAG reps there and I should have my ADC with me....SO again I asked then what part of this is "informal" either way, my eBenefits and PEBLO both show my documents as being up with VA for Final Decision of Benefits as of 9 April 2012, but nothing finalized yet. I'm still in limbo and more than likely going to lose ANOTHER stripe, but upon this decision going forward to the higher authority I'm going to request an in person "informal" hearing with the 2-Star making this appeal decision. HOPEFULLY things go well with the VA decision as they have until 30 May 12 per my PEBLO before we should get worried. All the while still held to fitness standards I can't maintain. I'm suffering here and just want this to be done.

Later,
Klam
 
Klam,

I'm still following and offer my hopes and prayers that this situation is rectified. Keep as positive as you can and keep fighting. Use those lawyers, they are there to help you, too.

Keep us posted!

Best,
Green
 
greengal13 said:
Klam,

I'm still following and offer my hopes and prayers that this situation is rectified. Keep as positive as you can and keep fighting. Use those lawyers, they are there to help you, too.

Keep us posted!

Best,
Green
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Thanks Green! I do appreciate these forums as they have been my only real coping/venting mechanism, as the situation and work centers dont really allow for much discussion that' isn't to the point. And not going to set myself up for further "repercussions"

Klam
 
I need understanding myself, I was placed on the prdl I signed off on everything on the 30th of May on the 7th of June a email from AFPC stated that they needed a statement from the commander clearing me from any admin actions because of statement in the commanders reccomendation letter before they could cut orders on the 13 of June from out of nowhere I get told that there will be admin actions against me. How does it work since I wasn't pending anything at the time of the approval
 
ktk2 said:
I need understanding myself, I was placed on the prdl I signed off on everything on the 30th of May on the 7th of June a email from AFPC stated that they needed a statement from the commander clearing me from any admin actions because of statement in the commanders reccomendation letter before they could cut orders on the 13 of June from out of nowhere I get told that there will be admin actions against me. How does it work since I wasn't pending anything at the time of the approval
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I really don't know in your particular case.

**Update**
17 May 12 - I received my Personal hearing with CC, he didn't speak at all, myself and ADC spoke, and we were offered to submit any additional documents, of which we did.
24 May 12 - Informed in writing and had to sign CC's intent to continue with the Demtion Action
5 June 12 - Called VA 1-800 - Have informal ratings mailed and faxed - Immediately request special addendum to the Demotion Package

7 June 12 - OFFICIAL Results from PEBLO - Sign my paper work - gets mailed off - 1st Shirt tells me CC has decided that my official document's cannot be allowed in the Demotion Action package as "being found unfit for duty does not have any relevance to the demotion action" WTF So unfit finding doesn't come into play for failing FITNESS???? - ADC called gets same answer, tell the 1st Shirt we do find it relevant and these items were postmarked 2 and 4 May - so if we'd had em we would have added em in rebuttal, therefore we're pressing the legal office to allow this in the package while they have it and are reviewing. CC orders shirt to call Legal and tell them under NO circumstances are we/they allowed to add anything to that document. -

12 - 14 (today) June 12 - Demotion Action still at legal - no action taken yet. Once this is forwarded with or without my Findings, and signed AF 356 and all that I will be notified.

I seriously hope that my CC doesn't have to do anything on my behalf with regards to Admin Sep, nor can I see how he can at this point from my understanding it's up to SecAF offices to make the determination. My CC's very own letter in my MEB packet stated he wanted me returned to whatever limited duty capacity I required so I could then be Admin Separated from the Air Force for failing to meet fitness standards, I do not see him turning around on this. Especially considering I've went to him 7 months in a row at the beginning usually of each month about having my duty day run in a consecutive manner vs 4 hrs split over 2 separate shifts, and have always been denied. And as well as the above mentioned letter he already wrote. In my IPEB findings they did state quote my CC's own account of how disabled I was, but left out his opinion, and only showed the facts.

ktk2 We'll get there, just keep documenting and pressing everyone you can. On one positive note I got a call from Social Security today they need me to come by tomorrow to sign my medical release (thought I already had but guess not)

v/r
Klam
 
I always wanted to transfer from Army Aviation to the Airforce and fly for them, but after reading stuff like this, I am glad I stayed in Army Aviation. As a test pilot, I wasn't bothered too much. But I really hope you guys fighting this crap in the Airforce get some positive resolution soon. I think its very sad that a commander would put an airman through this crap, even after medical issues are an obvious cause and a medical decision was already made. Now it just seems like revenge and I don't understand how this is legal in any way. I would have called my congressman long ago.
 
hawkdrivermtp said:
I always wanted to transfer from Army Aviation to the Airforce and fly for them, but after reading stuff like this, I am glad I stayed in Army Aviation. As a test pilot, I wasn't bothered too much. But I really hope you guys fighting this crap in the Airforce get some positive resolution soon. I think its very sad that a commander would put an airman through this crap, even after medical issues are an obvious cause and a medical decision was already made. Now it just seems like revenge and I don't understand how this is legal in any way. I would have called my congressman long ago.
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Oh it's inevitable that will happen - out of fear of reprisal I'll let my congressman take on the O-6 when I'm out of the military - right now it's just documentation lending creadence to my case. Hopefully I get my NCO stripe back as well, cause it's just sickening. You wouldn't believe how many people have asked me how does that guy sleep at night.. I bet very well, cause it's not him being hurt.
 
klamsnacks said:
Oh it's inevitable that will happen - out of fear of reprisal I'll let my congressman take on the O-6 when I'm out of the military - right now it's just documentation lending creadence to my case. Hopefully I get my NCO stripe back as well, cause it's just sickening. You wouldn't believe how many people have asked me how does that guy sleep at night.. I bet very well, cause it's not him being hurt.
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It will catch up to him if he keeps this up. Sooner or later, what comes around, goes around.
 
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