Can Soldier be flagged for overweight program after being referred to MEB

wheuman said:
I just got my Medical Separation orders and have been told I need promotion orders to E6 to get a higher severance pay. I was flagged for overweight in Nov 09 after having been referred to the MEB In July 09. My unit has taken me off the Promotion list. Is there any specific mention in regulation that indicates that I can not be flagged for overweight while in MEB process? I keep hearing that I shouldn't be flagged but I haven't been able to convince my unit

Thanks for your help. feel free to email me [email protected]
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I just had a Legal Brief at Bragg and they mentioned this. You can be flagged for almost ANY reason your commander sees fit, but you cannot be "put out" for it. But, you have to think that promotion is all about retain ability, and I would think that going through the MEB process wouldn't help that argument. Just standard Army policy states you must have atleast 13 months left in service to be promoted to E-6. Unless you or your CoC are purposely trying to "glitch" the system.

On a personal note, why would you even want E6? Just for Severance? Not the right reason man, do you want to lead by example like this? Not only that, but you'll be taking an E6 slot from your Battalion and an opportunity for one of your peers who is staying in to step up to the next level. I only take this personal because I turned down E6 due to my medical condition and so someone who is going to stay in and deserves it can have it. Think about it
 
I'm of the exact same belief - but ALSO don't think they should be able to TAKE it away from you if already serving in the rank - strictly for PT failure's associated to said medical conditions.
 
I disagree. You should never turn down a promotion if you are being offered the oppurtunity. What happens if the board comes back fit for duty? Also, an E6 looks better on paper than and E5 regardless. If the unit goes off of an individuals performance then there should never be a medical condition bias to not promote. Even though I am a senior CW3, my OERs all stated promote to CW4 even though I was in an MEB status. If someone is just doing it for the money than that is wrong, but if you are qualified and have a proven NCOER/OER, than discriminating based on a medical condition is the wrong answer. If you end up promoted and then leave the service based on medical conditions, guess what? That slot just opened up. But turning a unit denying a promotion if not flagged is wrong. You are still part of the military until discharge and nothing is official until it's over.
 
hawkdrivermtp said:
I disagree. You should never turn down a promotion if you are being offered the oppurtunity. What happens if the board comes back fit for duty? Also, an E6 looks better on paper than and E5 regardless. If the unit goes off of an individuals performance then there should never be a medical condition bias to not promote. Even though I am a senior CW3, my OERs all stated promote to CW4 even though I was in an MEB status. If someone is just doing it for the money than that is wrong, but if you are qualified and have a proven NCOER/OER, than discriminating based on a medical condition is the wrong answer. If you end up promoted and then leave the service based on medical conditions, guess what? That slot just opened up. But turning a unit denying a promotion if not flagged is wrong. You are still part of the military until discharge and nothing is official until it's over.
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hawkdrivermtp
Doing it for the money? Original Posters first sentance was "I just got my Medical Separation orders and have been told I need promotion orders to E6 to get a higher severance pay".

Just based off this statement, he already has Seperation orders, and basically wants the "rank" to get more money, not lead soldiers. Secondly, promotions, especially E5 and up, are about retain ability. Read the MILPER Messages that set this as policy, I believe soldiers considered to E5 must have 6 months or more left in service and E6 must have 12 months left. Not only that, but after rupturing my L5-S1 and herniating my L4, L5 with multiple other issues due to a Airborne Op. I've been on profile for over a year and I knew that I would no longer to be able to do PT, so I started watching what I ate, and if I didn't then I wouldn't expect anything less than my Chain of Command to question my leadership potential if I can't use my judgement to stay in a professional apperance. Lastly, your last sentance you mention still being part of the Military until discharge, and I completely agree, being weighed and taped is part of it.

To Original Poster, if you've been on profile long enough for your last APFT to expire, HRC will drop your promotable status. Only way to get it back is going to the Board again, with all required credentials.


NOTE - I'm not judging anyone if they deserve the rank or not. I'm just giving my opinion to what I read, with some facts in between.
 
This "argument" may be moot. This is from the Army Info paper (attached; note that the info about max severance pay time calculation is outdated...2008 NDAA changed it to max 19 years).

" k. Factors affecting compensation: Military disability compensation is based on disposition, rank, years of service, and the definition of “retired pay base” applicable to the soldier.

(1) Retired pay: For permanent retirement or placement on the TDRL, compensation is based on the higher of two computations: Disability rating times retired pay base; or 2.5% x years of service x retired pay base. Soldiers on the TDRL receive no less than 50% of their retired pay base. The computation of retired pay base depends upon when the Soldier entered the service. For those Soldiers who entered prior to 8 September 1980, retired pay base is the final basic pay received. For those who entered after 7 September 1980, it is the average of the high 36 months of basic pay.

(2) Severance pay: Disability severance pay equals 2 months basic pay for each year of service not to exceed 12 years (a maximum of 24 months basic pay).

(3) Disability retirement grade: Under 10 USC 1372, the grade at which a Soldier is permanently retired for disability or placed on the TDRL is the highest of the following options: current grade; highest grade satisfactorily held; or the grade to which the Soldier would have been promoted had it not been for the disability retirement. The latter option includes those on a promotion list who have met any required cut-off score and those who have met the time requirements for an automatic promotion. For Soldiers who entered the military after
7 September 1980, retirement at promotion-list grade will have no impact on retired pay. This is because they fall under the high-36 month average of basic pay instead of final basic pay. Actual promotion is not required to be retired at promotion-list grade. However, Army enlisted promotion policy allows promotion on the last day for those whose promotion eligibility date is after the disability retirement/separation date. Officers are retired at promotion list grade without actual promotion because officer promotion law is interpreted to preclude promotion ahead of promotion eligibility date.

(4) Grade for disability severance pay: Under 10 USC 1212, the same options as described above pertain to the grade at which disability severance pay is computed. Unlike disability retirement, severance pay at promotion list grade does increase the amount of disability severance pay. Actual promotion reference promotion-list grade is the same as described for disability retirement."


 

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Redstripe101 said:
hawkdrivermtp
Doing it for the money? Original Posters first sentance was "I just got my Medical Separation orders and have been told I need promotion orders to E6 to get a higher severance pay".

Just based off this statement, he already has Seperation orders, and basically wants the "rank" to get more money, not lead soldiers. Secondly, promotions, especially E5 and up, are about retain ability. Read the MILPER Messages that set this as policy, I believe soldiers considered to E5 must have 6 months or more left in service and E6 must have 12 months left. Not only that, but after rupturing my L5-S1 and herniating my L4, L5 with multiple other issues due to a Airborne Op. I've been on profile for over a year and I knew that I would no longer to be able to do PT, so I started watching what I ate, and if I didn't then I wouldn't expect anything less than my Chain of Command to question my leadership potential if I can't use my judgement to stay in a professional apperance. Lastly, your last sentance you mention still being part of the Military until discharge, and I completely agree, being weighed and taped is part of it.

To Original Poster, if you've been on profile long enough for your last APFT to expire, HRC will drop your promotable status. Only way to get it back is going to the Board again, with all required credentials.


NOTE - I'm not judging anyone if they deserve the rank or not. I'm just giving my opinion to what I read, with some facts in between.
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I do see where you are coming from, but if a soldier was qualified for promotion, regardless of medical status, he/she should not be overlooked for a promotion if automatic promotion time-lines are met or the meeting of cut-off scores. Money or not, if promotion is deserved for the service members military past achievements, then promoting an E5 to an E6 should not be an issue. It's different if a soldier is requesting an ETS date and no loner wishes to serve. Obviously they are in a different category as they are unwilling to accept an Active Duty Service Obligation. This has no bearing and the required ADSO doesn't hold if a service member is being medically separated. If I was on the promotion list to CW4, you are damn right I would do all I could to make rank prior to discharge. Not only would it give me a higher severance if that were the case, but some rank comes with benefits as we all know. I was injured during a three year ADSO I agreed to for a test pilot bonus. The final 12 months of that ADSO I was permanently grounded but still collected my annual bonus. I signed the dotted line and in the fine print it even stated I wouldn't be required to repay any part of my bonus if continued service was compromised due to injury or needs of the Army. This is also the same for officers using tuition assistance (TA) during the MEB/PEB process. That ADSO is thrown out just as the ADSO one gets from turning over Post 9/11 GI Bill benefits to family members. I signed mine over the moment I knew I was going to be MEBd since I knew the ADSO didn't matter. Its the same if I was promoted next month to CW4 even though I am less than 90 days of being completely out of the military due to involuntary medical discharge. I would have made the promotion list and if my sequence number was timed right, I would be promoted regardless. If my promotion equaled to an extra 500 a month, that would be a significant increase in a severance over 14 years of service and if I was within regulations to receive the promotion, why would anyone turn that down?

I know there are those who will use the system to their benefit, but if a service member is deserving of a promotion, or on a promotion list, it would be unfair to suddenly tell that service member, too bad, you are injured and we aren't going to promote you since you are being medically separated.

Jason made that quite clear in his response above. If a service member has met automatic promotion time-lines or met cut-off scores, promotion should not be an issue or canceled due to a medical disability retirement and that should also apply to a medical severance.

I do respect your opinion, but if a service member worked hard for a promotion and is now up for a medical separation or retirement, the service member is protected so they are not denied that promotion either for monetary purposes or status.
 
spec-4 brandon said:
Med board was started today got my P3 profile and met my peblo
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Hopefully you are assigned to a good PEBLO who will assist and answer any questions you may have during this process. Check the forums because a lot of answers to basic questions can easily be found and are often asked on here daily. Best of luck!
 
Command can reverse board decision, even after a valid board.

AR 600-8-19
(a) If the promotion authority concurs with the non-recommendation, he or she will authenticate items 6 through 8. The words "I certify that the soldier has been recommended for promotion by a valid promotion board" will be lined out and initialed. The words "Not Recommended" will be inserted in its place. The DA Form 3355 will be returned to the unit commander

para 3-22
a. The service remaining requirement is 12 months for promotion to SSG.
b. Service remaining requirement will be computed from the effective date of promotion or from the day following the closing date of a DA Form 268 that is closed unfavorably.

c(5) Those who would lose eligibility to reenlist in their selective re-enlistment bonus (SRB) MOS, or who lose entitlement to all or a portion of SRB, if required, to extend their current term of service or reenlist at their current grade to meet the service requirement. However, those Soldiers must commit to reenlist on their ETS, in writing, by the last day of the promotion month

Again, this is why I was saying retain ability. This is POLICY, not what's right or wrong. I understand where you are coming from, if said soldier is deserving and meets requirements then maybe be promoted. But Units that want to protect their promotion slots can use Policy and Reg to do so. Just seems like he would be fighting it LONG before Separation Orders were cut and reading into Regs and Policy. On average, it takes a soldier going through the IDES(Integrated Disability Evaluation System) 394 days until they are free from service. Only exceptions are "fast tracks" and "legacy" cases which are soldiers who were already in the process when the new "integrated" system came out.


Regarding the Overweight aspect.

AR 600-8-2
1–12a.
c. Failure to pass the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) or failure to take the APFT within the required period.
Remove the flag (code E/type report) on the day the soldier passes the APFT or at expiration term of service (ETS)/
expiration of service agreement (ESA)/mandatory release date (MRD).
d. Entry into Weight Control Program. Remove the flag (code E/type report) on the day the commander decides that
the soldier is in compliance with the program.

1–14. Actions prohibited by a flag
A flag properly imposed in accordance with this regulation prohibits the personnel actions listed below (see para 1–15
for exceptions). The PSC will control the if applicable to guard against accidental execution of—
d. Promotion or reevaluation for promotion.

2–1.
c. Active flag cases will be reviewed monthly.
d. A flag will be removed immediately when a soldier’s status changes from unfavorable to favorable.

Basically this means ... by your profile, you may not technically be flagged for failing an APFT, unless you can do alternate events. But, you can still be flagged for being overweight, regardless to APFT score, or lack thereof. This means that the flag will exist, but no Administrative Action can be taken since the MEB Action takes precedence over it. So for example, lets say you were flagged at the beginning of the MEB process. This only means that, the overweight packet will basically sit under the MEB packet. Now lets say PEB finds you fit for duty. Immediately, the Overweight can continue to Administrative Action.


To me, it sounds like the CoC is protecting their numbers, which they should, for incentives to future re-ups to active and physically able leaders that are going to stick around to lead soldiers. Once I caught a hint of me being referred to MEB, I was face deep into the process on my own free time. Original Poster seems like he discovered the Severance Pay late in the process and wants money. Call it what you will, I turned down my E6 in July of 2011 because of how I would feel if I had to give a speech at my Promotion Ceremony. I can't promise a single soldier in formation anything besides the fact that I'm physically broke and I would not be deploying with them. Sorry, I wouldn't put myself through the process of getting to know them, leading them, training, and what not only to not deploy with them and them losing a familiar leader to a replacement that might have a complete different style than me. Again, it's more personal to me, but there are Regs and Policy in place the CoC can use.
 
42Adam said:
UPDATE

This is a direct quote from Jason (Site Administrator), from another forum, regarding my situation.

"Re: Flagged for Overweight after 3 weeks in MEB process?
They cannot separate you for non-misconduct/chapters that would result in honorable characterization. They can "flag" "counsel" or whatever, the real teeth in the law is always where money is involved. Improper separation will give rise to wrongful discharge claim and/or claim for retirement benefits.

You cannot legally be separated for weight control issues while going through an MEB/PEB (or having conditions that warrant an MEB under AR 40-501 chapter 3) until final disposition of your case.
Jason

Physical Evaluation Board Forum Administrator
New Members- Read OVERVIEW OF MEB/PEB PROCESS
Check out the new Linked VASRD

"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards." -Theodore Roosevelt"
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Glad I saw this - because I'm going through the MEB process right now and have a weight issue myself! THANK YOU!!!
 
exactly, they can flag, but not separate. BUT ... if they find you "fit for duty", you'll be departed from the MEB process which means the flag could turn into separation.

Edit - this site should be about helping soldiers understand them amount of information thats dumped on them about MEB issues and understanding their rights. Yet, I feel like some soldiers are just looking for another way to get more money. If your overwieght, THEN EAT LESS OR HEALTHIER, I ruptured my L5/S1 disks which effects everything from bending and walking to sleeping and taking a dump, I know I can't do PT like I did so I started watching what I eat. It's not hard, no excuses for people getting fat, unless you have some thyroid condition or diabetes. You make yourself look like shit, and you make people you never met look like shit when you walk around in your ACU's stretched out and some civilian sees you and wonders "what the fuck are they letting in the Army". Quit looking for handouts, making excuses, and quit being a shit bag and maybe your CoC will leave you alone.
 
Bad topic. I went down that road about a year ago and I was attacked. I have so many issues I can't do....sendrom. Yes medication can cause weight gain/increase appetite. There is some real good help available but you need to want to do this and some people don't want to. I believe to each their own. I've posted all the crap I did to lose the weight just to make it to the end and when I left it wasn't on bad terms of weight/waiste measurement, it was on so many other issues and they were all bad. Again, I'm no expert, go to the HAWK for help.
 
Ok....let me get this straight. I have been recommended for MEB but it hasn't started yet. I have just spent the better part of the last 5 months either recovering from surgery for Rotator Cuff or hospitalized, both inpatient and partial hospitalization for Major Depressive Disorder. Having said that, I have been pretty much unable to work out except for cardio and lost a bunch of weight, an inch and half off my waist and 2 off my neck. My second day back at work (yesterday) the taped me. I failed, yet when I 10 pounds heavier and biger I passed. Today they initatied a flag, after my MEB starts and assume I don't improve can my unit chapter me? This is where I am confused.
 
Hopefully with a good commander, they will see improvement and not move to anything more severe. If your not in the MEB system, it is my understanding that you could be admin discharged. I'm not sure what branch of service your in but they are only testing you on what is not on your profile. I would check the regulation because it seems odd that they would do a PT test so quickly after surgery. I got by for years by scoring high on running but unable to do more than the min on push-ups and upper end of waiste. When I could only do the waiste, I had to score 75%. I had to lose a lot of weight to get there. I was told to eat all the salad I wanted with fat free dressing. I ate a lot of fruits and violated my diet with McDonalds and Wendys. I could only walk on an elipical trainer and kept ending up in the ER. I'm not saying be stupid like me but eating mostly salads, I did not go hungry and it worked.
 
MEB doesn't officially become "initiated" until the PEB finds you unfit for duty, being recommended is not the same. Once you are found "unfit" you'll be entered into IDES(integrated disability evaluation system), then it becomes administrative, from only that point on they cannot separate you for being overweight. Although they can flag you, give you shit, enter you into weight programs etc etc.

Plus you need to be proactive, your Chain of Command isn't stupid, if they see what used to be a good soldier, recovering/suffering from a medical condition and trying to still do their best, they'll probably leave you alone. But if your the typical sick call ranger, find every way to get out soldier, they'll use regs and policy in action to make life hell.

It's your job to know your rights and regs.
 
So according to my Commander the MEB has been recommended. I met with my Psychiatrist today and he wrote my P3 profile. What happens next? And what kind of a time frame am I looking at?
 
How are you going to be found unfit for duty unless someone starts the process? I'm not positive exactly when the MEB is officially started, The request of a NARSUM, signing of a NARSUM, but it is way before being found unfit. I agree if you are proactive the commander will give you some room to improve and recover but don't think for a minute that with a force draw down that they won't use any failure to get to what is needed.
 
The notion that the MEB isn't officially "initiated" until the PEB finds you unfit is an odd one. I say this because you complete the MEB prior to your packet being sent to the PEB. The MEB only lists out conditions that fall/meet retention standards as dictated on the narrative summary. I would venture a guess that one is in the MEB process once you are assigned a PEBLO since they do your initial counseling telling you that you are in the MEB. The IDES system is the new system, not only if you are unfit. If you are unfit then the VA gets a letter of unfitness and ratings are assigned to the conditions by DRAS. IDES is where the VA conducts your compensation and pension exams and gives you proposed ratings (if unfit) versus waiting until you are separated from the military before filing your claim and have the exams done. The ratings you are given while still on active duty are proposed and the official ones won't be set/compensated for until the VA receives your DD214.
 
Redstripe101 said:
On a personal note, why would you even want E6? Just for Severance? Not the right reason man, do you want to lead by example like this? Not only that, but you'll be taking an E6 slot from your Battalion and an opportunity for one of your peers who is staying in to step up to the next level. I only take this personal because I turned down E6 due to my medical condition and so someone who is going to stay in and deserves it can have it. Think about it
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It IS a good reason. It will help feed his family in the long run so he should get the promotion if he deserves it. Also, with regard to taking a slot, etc... That's not really a valid argument because, once he leaves in a few months, the slot will open back up again so nobody loses...everyone wins in the end.
 
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