Is CRSC Retired Pay?

The statute itself says directly that it “is not retired pay” and something to the effect that “no monthly payment under this blah, blah shall be considered to be retired pay”.

Seems pretty clear…

So if that’s the case, and Soto seemed to further reinforce it by the SC shooting down the Appeals Court’s assertion that “matters involving retired pay” and CRSC being paid from the Military Retirement Fund were enough to invoke the Barring Act, why does DFAS repeatedly refer to my CRSC as “retired pay” in their correspondence?

trip5896 said:

The statute itself says directly that it “is not retired pay” and something to the effect that “no monthly payment under this blah, blah shall be considered to be retired pay”.

Seems pretty clear…

So if that’s the case, and Soto seemed to further reinforce it by the SC shooting down the Appeals Court’s assertion that “matters involving retired pay” and CRSC being paid from the Military Retirement Fund were enough to invoke the Barring Act, why does DFAS repeatedly refer to my CRSC as “retired pay” in their correspondence?

Click to expand...

Can you include an example of said correspondence? Was this prior to or after Soto? I know the services still have to review any/all approval memos in order to resolve any outstanding actions prior to the 20 August 2025 Interim Guidance memo stating that the receipt date by the service is the effective date of retro pay. That, in itself, is going to be a massive undertaking that I'm probably underguestimating at 10k worth of claims to review, delete any Barring Statute wording and resubmit to DFAS, which will, in turn, do a new audit prior to one being paid.

This is where the plot thickens!

After being retroactively medically retired in 2018 (effective date: 2004), I received my DFAS backpay statement for my DoD disability retirement, all of which was waived due to being rated 100% by the VA from my date of discharge. No mention of my Disability Severance Pay or a debt being established due to it was mentioned.

VA could not recoup my Disability Severance Pay since I had a number of other, much higher rated SC injuries that were not included in my original PEB decision to grant me a 10% rating and medically separate me (I was advised to keep it to as few conditions as possible so as to expedite my decision and subsequent discharge).

In Dec. 2021, I was awarded a CRSC 70% rating (100% since I’m also VA IU), and received about $7k backpay, going back the full 6 year limit, and full monthly payments. The backpay seemed a bit short to me (according to my calculations, it was between $3-$5k). Again, no mention of my DSP or any debt arising from it.

I wanted to be proactive about it since, thanks to this forum, I was 99% sure DFAS had erred and would one day try to recoup that money or establish a debt, so I requested a waiver based on my incorrect rating by the army PEB and the injustice of DSP converting to a debt almost 20 years after when I have a family of 5 to support.

I heard nothing back and full CRSC payments continued for the next year. I then contacted DFAS to ask about the missing retro backpay. A DFAS pay tech called me a couple weeks later to tell me I was correct in my assertion I was still owed monies ($5kish) from the first tech messing it up (never received a statement from that tech either). She told me to expect the pay in 3 weeks at most and to call her back if I didn’t get it. I let 5 weeks pass with no payment made until I called her back.

She informed me that not only would I not be getting the money, but DFAS would now be garnishing my CRSC payments until the DSP debt they’d suddenly “discovered”, after my account had been audited a total of 3 times over a 5 year period, was repaid.

I now turned my attention back to my debt waiver, which had been stuck in limbo for about a year and a half. Nobody I spoke with could tell me anything other than it was at some department in DFAS awaiting review but I couldn’t speak directly with those employees.

I had about enough waiting with no updates a year after in 2024, so I contacted my congressman. They got the ball rolling and DFAS finally got around to denying me the waiver about 3 months later.

Here are the kickers and they immediately raised red flags to me: they called my CRSC “retired pay”. AND the precedent case they included involved a Guard member who took early retirement separation pay or something, then later turned 60 and started having their regular LONGEVITY retired pay recouped for the severance/separation pay. No mention of CRSC, no retro medical retirement upgrade from a medical discharge, no DSP, and nothing about VA not being able to recoup the “debt”.

This is what happens when you pay the lowest amount, i.e., GS-5, to someone managing one's payroll, ffs Well, CRSC is NOT retired pay, even though it's measured by one's longevity.

Right! And even with all the errors, delays, and general incompetence, DFAS calling CRSC “retired pay” was universal among the individual pay techs AND the board who decide debt waiver cases…

Now, maybe I’m reading too much into this, and maybe Jason Perry or RonG can set me straight, but it seems like they’re trying to square-peg-round-hole CRSC into the “retired pay” category in order to make it eligible to recoup Disability Severance Pay from, much the way they did with the Barring Act in the Soto case.

Congress was quite clear in its statutory intent when they crafted the CRSC law (pretty sure they’d have called it Combat-Related Special Retired Pay or Combat-Related Concurrent Receipt or something if they’d wanted to). Considering CRSC is NOT retired pay, all my DoD disability retirement is/has always been waived, and VA was not able to recoup my DSP, how then is CRSC a duplication of benefits (DSP&Retired Pay) for the same period of service?

I mean, DFAS itself even has totally separate tabs for CRSC and Retired Pay on MyPay. CRSC also uses VA ratings, %’s, SMC, and pay rates, unlike retired pay. And just because one of the calculations that limits CRSC to your longevity retired pay amount and being paid out the retirement fund, still doesn’t make it what they claim it is.

Plus taxable vs. non-taxable…

I just can’t come up with another logical (or bureaucratic) reason they’d do it…

trip5896 said:

Right! And even with all the errors, delays, and general incompetence, DFAS calling CRSC “retired pay” was universal among the individual pay techs AND the board who decide debt waiver cases…

Now, maybe I’m reading too much into this, and maybe Jason Perry or RonG can set me straight, but it seems like they’re trying to square-peg-round-hole CRSC into the “retired pay” category in order to make it eligible to recoup Disability Severance Pay from, much the way they did with the Barring Act in the Soto case.

Congress was quite clear in its statutory intent when they crafted the CRSC law (pretty sure they’d have called it Combat-Related Special Retired Pay or Combat-Related Concurrent Receipt or something if they’d wanted to). Considering CRSC is NOT retired pay, all my DoD disability retirement is/has always been waived, and VA was not able to recoup my DSP, how then is CRSC a duplication of benefits (DSP&Retired Pay) for the same period of service?

I mean, DFAS itself even has totally separate tabs for CRSC and Retired Pay on MyPay. CRSC also uses VA ratings, %’s, SMC, and pay rates, unlike retired pay. And just because one of the calculations that limits CRSC to your longevity retired pay amount and being paid out the retirement fund, still doesn’t make it what they claim it is.

Plus taxable vs. non-taxable…

I just can’t come up with another logical (or bureaucratic) reason they’d do it…

Click to expand...

CRSC isn't allowed for those who get severance. Severance is in lieu of retirement pay and insurance. To qualify for CRSC you have to have earned a retirement. You give up your retirement if you accept severance leaving you with a check that may be recouped and VA compensation only.

Provis said:

CRSC isn't allowed for those who get severance. Severance is in lieu of retirement pay and insurance. To qualify for CRSC you have to have earned a retirement. You give up your retirement if you accept severance leaving you with a check that may be recouped and VA compensation only.

Click to expand...

I understand that. I wasn’t rated correctly in 2004, a problem that enough service members had with the various branches lowballing them in order to avoid 30%+medical retirements that Congress had to step in and create the PDBR. That’s who upgraded me from a Medical Discharge in 2004, with Disability Severance Pay, to a 30% rated Ch. 61 Medical Retirement in 2018 as an E-4 with 4 years 7 months (retroactive to 2004).

All of my 30% DoD Disability Retired Pay was waived from 2004 to present due to 100% VA rating.

VA could not recoup my Disability Severance Pay since I had other, much more highly rated service-connected disabilities separate from those the PEB and later PDBR rated me for. In other words, those disabilities I got the severance for (knees and left shoulder) could have been thrown out completely by VA and I’d still have a 100% rating (for back, neck MH, etc.), thus no duplication of disability benefits occurred.

I was awarded CRSC in 2021, and in 2023 DFAS then claimed I had a debt because I had been paid both DSP AND “retired pay” for the same period of service.

You make it sound like I had a choice to take a medical retirement over the DSP, which I didn’t and I was blessed to have the error later corrected!

trip5896 said:

I understand that. I wasn’t rated correctly in 2004, a problem that enough service members had with the various branches lowballing them in order to avoid 30%+medical retirements that Congress had to step in and create the PDBR. That’s who upgraded me from a Medical Discharge in 2004, with Disability Severance Pay, to a 30% rated Ch. 61 Medical Retirement in 2018 as an E-4 with 4 years 7 months (retroactive to 2004).

All of my 30% DoD Disability Retired Pay was waived from 2004 to present due to 100% VA rating.

VA could not recoup my Disability Severance Pay since I had other, much more highly rated service-connected disabilities separate from those the PEB and later PDBR rated me for. In other words, those disabilities I got the severance for (knees and left shoulder) could have been thrown out completely by VA and I’d still have a 100% rating (for back, neck MH, etc.), thus no duplication of disability benefits occurred.

I was awarded CRSC in 2021, and in 2023 DFAS then claimed I had a debt because I had been paid both DSP AND “retired pay” for the same period of service.

You make it sound like I had a choice to take a medical retirement over the DSP, which I didn’t and I was blessed to have the error later corrected!

Click to expand...

That is correct. If retro due to upgrade from severance to medical retirement then you would have to pay back severance paid out. Which is the opposite if you had stayed as a disabled veteran with no retirement pay. So it makes sense. You had severance and no recoupment due to having 100% outside of the conditions that you were paid severance for. Now you get retro retirement. You can't get retirement pay and severance pay and it doesn't matter if you previously didn't have to pay it back. So it looks like eventually you will get CRSC after the recoupment of severance via CRSC pay if you live long enough.

Since you were in a short while the CRSC you are missing out on is minor and if you spend your severance well it can be looked at a good deal if you can view it with a positive perspective. Now you get your VA pay just like before AND now you get tricare for you and your family. That is a huge gain. Also, you got a loan that is interest free with getting severance. Your CRSC that you are missing out on as and E4 with 4 years and 7 months of service isn't going to be much more per month. So in a way your income didn't change and you got a check to spend ahead and when thats paid back you will get a CRSC check equal to the value of your earned longevity pension. So start with severance and VA pay. Now VA pay and Tricare for entire family and then in the future get compensated for the value of your pension earned for serving. All in all not bad!

Provis said:

That is correct. If retro due to upgrade from severance to medical retirement then you would have to pay back severance paid out. Which is the opposite if you had stayed as a disabled veteran with no retirement pay. So it makes sense. You had severance and no recoupment due to having 100% outside of the conditions that you were paid severance for. Now you get retro retirement. You can't get retirement pay and severance pay and it doesn't matter if you previously didn't have to pay it back. So it looks like eventually you will get CRSC after the recoupment of severance via CRSC pay if you live long enough.

Since you were in a short while the CRSC you are missing out on is minor and if you spend your severance well it can be looked at a good deal if you can view it with a positive perspective. Now you get your VA pay just like before AND now you get tricare for you and your family. That is a huge gain. Also, you got a loan that is interest free with getting severance. Your CRSC that you are missing out on as and E4 with 4 years and 7 months of service isn't going to be much more per month. So in a way your income didn't change and you got a check to spend ahead and when thats paid back you will get a CRSC check equal to the value of your earned longevity pension. So start with severance and VA pay. Now VA pay and Tricare for entire family and then in the future get compensated for the value of your pension earned for serving. All in all not bad!

Click to expand...

Right, but again, CRSC is not retired pay…I’ve waived over $100k in retired pay for my VA disability already. So now I’m double waiving all my retired pay and part of my CRSC, in effect.

If you want me to go even deeper, my CRSC injuries are totally different from those from my severance pay/disability retired pay, AND I’d STILL have 100% VA rating if both sets of injuries weren’t present (yes, I realize CRSC injuries need VA ratings first, just making a point about how no de facto duplication of benefits occurred).

I’m trying to figure out the WHY behind DFAS calling CRSC “retired pay”. Granted, this all predated the Soto decision, so it’s possible it was solely a smoke screen to justify their use of the Barring Act to limit CRSC backpay to 6 years, or if it’s also to justify unlawfully going after DSP.

You’re right, it’s not a lot, but it’s enough to pay most of our utilities every month. And when you consider DFAS told me I was owed over $5k right at property tax time, then suddenly discovered I owed them $15k after multiple account audits over 5 years, it makes me even more suspicious.

I’d be more positive if I hadn’t been put in this situation in the first place and had just been properly rated and placed on the PDRL in 2004.

I couldn’t work or go to school after my discharge because I needed surgery on both knees and injections in back, neck, and shoulder. Plus MRIs, follow ups, PT, VA C&P exams etc., all of which I had to jam into my 6 months of Tricare coverage. It took 15 months to get my VA rating for medical coverage through them.

We also should’ve been locked in to the 2004 Tricare rate instead of the 2018 rate, which has cost an unknown amount of money.

Tricare refuses to repay my medical bills from 2004 after the 6 month coverage window expired, despite my retro retirement. They simply cannot reconcile my 2018 enrollment date with my 2004 eligibility date. Catch 22, right? How could I enroll if I wasn’t eligible at the time?

We paid over $4000 for a lawyer to assist me with my PDBR case, in order to give me the best chance possible to correct the army’s error/injustice. Yes, it was voluntary, but again, I shouldn’t have been put in that position in the first place.

My wife and I were forced to opt-out of SBP coverage due to the absurd amount of back benefit premiums we were told we would’ve owed. Plus, I was receiving no retired pay, so what, we’d be sent a bill every month on top of that for a benefit she might not ever collect in the event she passes before me?

My family was also forced off CHAMPVA, which we had no idea would happen when we became Tricare eligible. Nobody told us until we started getting rejected insurance payments about 6 months later. Fun times trying to get all that cleared up. Plus, CHAMPVA=no premiums, Tricare=premiums, as I’m sure you’re aware.

trip5896 said:

Right, but again, CRSC is not retired pay…I’ve waived over $100k in retired pay for my VA disability already. So now I’m double waiving all my retired pay and part of my CRSC, in effect.

If you want me to go even deeper, my CRSC injuries are totally different from those from my severance pay/disability retired pay, AND I’d STILL have 100% VA rating if both sets of injuries weren’t present (yes, I realize CRSC injuries need VA ratings first, just making a point about how no de facto duplication of benefits occurred).

I’m trying to figure out the WHY behind DFAS calling CRSC “retired pay”. Granted, this all predated the Soto decision, so it’s possible it was solely a smoke screen to justify their use of the Barring Act to limit CRSC backpay to 6 years, or if it’s also to justify unlawfully going after DSP.

You’re right, it’s not a lot, but it’s enough to pay most of our utilities every month. And when you consider DFAS told me I was owed over $5k right at property tax time, then suddenly discovered I owed them $15k after multiple account audits over 5 years, it makes me even more suspicious.

I’d be more positive if I hadn’t been put in this situation in the first place and had just been properly rated and placed on the PDRL in 2004.

I couldn’t work or go to school after my discharge because I needed surgery on both knees and injections in back, neck, and shoulder. Plus MRIs, follow ups, PT, VA C&P exams etc., all of which I had to jam into my 6 months of Tricare coverage. It took 15 months to get my VA rating for medical coverage through them.

We also should’ve been locked in to the 2004 Tricare rate instead of the 2018 rate, which has cost an unknown amount of money.

Tricare refuses to repay my medical bills from 2004 after the 6 month coverage window expired, despite my retro retirement. They simply cannot reconcile my 2018 enrollment date with my 2004 eligibility date. Catch 22, right? How could I enroll if I wasn’t eligible at the time?

We paid over $4000 for a lawyer to assist me with my PDBR case, in order to give me the best chance possible to correct the army’s error/injustice. Yes, it was voluntary, but again, I shouldn’t have been put in that position in the first place.

My wife and I were forced to opt-out of SBP coverage due to the absurd amount of back benefit premiums we were told we would’ve owed. Plus, I was receiving no retired pay, so what, we’d be sent a bill every month on top of that for a benefit she might not ever collect in the event she passes before me?

My family was also forced off CHAMPVA, which we had no idea would happen when we became Tricare eligible. Nobody told us until we started getting rejected insurance payments about 6 months later. Fun times trying to get all that cleared up. Plus, CHAMPVA=no premiums, Tricare=premiums, as I’m sure you’re aware.

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that. It seems your attorney didn't give you a heads up of what would happen if you won a retro retirement. There is nothing to do now. Good luck!

Provis said:

Sorry to hear that. It seems your attorney didn't give you a heads up of what would happen if you won a retro retirement. There is nothing to do now. Good luck!

Click to expand...

Thanks, but I feel like trying to explain my entire situation has muddied the waters a bit and that my original question is still unanswered…

Why is DFAS justifying their denial of my DSP debt waiver, despite the payment being made due to an error/injustice that was no fault of my own, by saying my CRSC is retired pay, thus making it fair game for recoupment?

trip5896 said:

Thanks, but I feel like trying to explain my entire situation has muddied the waters a bit and that my original question is still unanswered…

Why is DFAS justifying their denial of my DSP debt waiver, despite the payment being made due to an error/injustice that was no fault of my own, by saying my CRSC is retired pay, thus making it fair game for recoupment?

Click to expand...

DFAS is correct. Recoupment is correct in your case.

Provis said:

DFAS is correct. Recoupment is correct in your case.

Click to expand...

But, again:

1. Why repeatedly call it retired pay and not CRSC in all their correspondence?

2. Why include a precedential case to justify my debt waiver denial that, likewise, has nothing to do with CRSC, Ch. 61, medical discharge upgrade to retirement, or DSP (Guard member, regular severance pay, and recoupment from their longevity retired pay when they reached age 60)? Don’t precedents usually have to have at least a passing similarity to the case they’re being applied to lol?

There has to be something to this when they seem to be going out of their way to mischaracterize CRSC as retired pay, just like they did when they unlawfully applied the Barring Act. DFAS’s Counsel is surely directing and fully aware of it.

I also seem to remember Disability Severance Pay being brought up during the Soto Supreme Court oral arguments, along with reiteration how CRSC is NOT retired pay…

trip5896 said:

But, again:

1. Why repeatedly call it retired pay and not CRSC in all their correspondence?

2. Why include a precedential case to justify my debt waiver denial that, likewise, has nothing to do with CRSC, Ch. 61, medical discharge upgrade to retirement, or DSP (Guard member, regular severance pay, and recoupment from their longevity retired pay when they reached age 60)? Don’t precedents usually have to have at least a passing similarity to the case they’re being applied to lol?

There has to be something to this when they seem to be going out of their way to mischaracterize CRSC as retired pay, just like they did when they unlawfully applied the Barring Act. DFAS’s Counsel is surely directing and fully aware of it.

I also seem to remember Disability Severance Pay being brought up during the Soto Supreme Court oral arguments, along with reiteration how CRSC is NOT retired pay…

Click to expand...

I don't need to answer those questions. If you get paid severance and then get retro retirement severance needs to be paid back. Maybe ask an attorney but bottom line DFAS did it correctly. You went from VA compensation + Severance with no recoupment to retro retirement that requires recoupment of severance.