Admin Seperation during my MEB

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Draagyn

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
My command has tried twice in the past to separate me under 14-12c commission of a serious offense, both time failed because they couldn't get past legal with what they had. They are now trying a third time to chapter me out, but when I when to my orthopedic surgeon he recommended me for a MEB because I lost 45% rotation in my right shoulder due to a mess up with my surgery. With my irritable bowl syndrome, migraines, hemorrhoids, hearing loss and a messed up right ankle, he was wondering why I wasn't refereed sooner. I have been told my multiple sources that my command now can't separate me due to the fact that I was recommended for a MEB, is this true? And what can I do to get my command to stop harassing me with these attempts to chapter me out?
 
You can't be separated for "non-punative," during the IDES process, but if you're charged with offenses that can result in an OTH discharge your MEB/PEB will be suspended. If it's non-punative they can still push the paperwork through, but the MEB/PEB process must be finalized and it will be run as a dual action. Essentially, after your PEB is finalized the service secretary decides whether to separate under the admin discharge or medical discharge.

Try and stay under the radar as much as possible.
 
Commission of a serious offense can result in an UOTHC discharge. They can medically board you but can't separate you for physical unfitness until they complete action on the misconduct discharge.

However, if I was you I may consider going to the IG. If they have twice initiated and failed to prove a case for misconduct on you, it would now appear to be a witch hunt and vendetta.
 
I went to IG and they said they are not there to get anyone in trouble but to correct the wrong actions. They said if the command feels it is necessary to chapter you out that is their choice. Also my command now wants the number for my doctor so that they can call him about my MEB...can they do that. I thought they couldn't have any direct influence on the MEB process? I am going to go to the Ombudsman office and talk to them. Is there anything else I can do to get my CoC off my back?
 
So can you backfill the story a little bit? I think we may not have everything we need to steer you in the right direction.

Are you in the official MEB/PEB process?
Do you have a PEBLO?
Have you done VA exams?
What did the command try and separate you for before? You said comission of a serious offense, but didn't really elaborate.
Have you been in trouble since they tried and failed?
 
I just got recommended by my Orthopedic Doctor, I have the profile he made referring me for a MEB
I have not been contacted by PEBLO yet.
They tried to seperate me because I was found guilty of disobeying an order in a court marshal. They gave me 15 days extra duty. They have tried to seperate me for this twice before and failed. Now I was in civilian court and was held in contempt, now they are trying to seperate me for that.
 
Draagyn said:
I just got recommended by my Orthopedic Doctor, I have the profile he made referring me for a MEB
I have not been contacted by PEBLO yet.
They tried to seperate me because I was found guilty of disobeying an order in a court marshal. They gave me 15 days extra duty. They have tried to seperate me for this twice before and failed. Now I was in civilian court and was held in contempt, now they are trying to seperate me for that.
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The first thing you have to worry about is it doesn't sound like you are in the IDES process (MEB/PEB) yet. First order of business is they will assign a PEBLO on the MEB is initiated. You need to follow up with the Dr right away. Go let them know what is happening at your unit and that they want to speak to him. He will decide what to do. Make sure he indeed updated your profile and has you coded P3. That should trigger the MEB in most cases. If you are not in the process, the command can initiate chapter. They can hit you with a patterns of misconduct chapter. The combination of the courts marshall, the article 15 and your current mess make it very possible.

Once the MEB is underway, patterns of misconduct becomes much harder. As was said before, they could run it as a dual action, but couldn't finish it until the MEB/PEB is done. Then the separation authority will have to decide which to go with.

Ombudsman can help and may be able to reason with your command. The first thing I see though is you need to stop getting in trouble. When you are sitting under a microscope, every little thing you do get looked at. I wouldn't spit on a sidewalk or jaywalk. It's that serious.

You need to see the Dr today! If he doesn't have that profile done, it needs to be done now.
 
Brother I feel for you. My COC conducted an AR 15-6 ROI, refused to let me rebut it after I had asked for it verbally, via memorandums sent via certified mail, via an IG complaint...and ultimately via a FOIA request I only received an incomplete copy of the AR 15-6 ROI. Of course I didn't receive the AR 15-6 ROI until AFTER a relief for cause/referred OER AND a LOR had been issued based on the AR 15-6 ROI. Gets better. Then they initiated a WOFR (Withdrawal of Federal Recognition) board in order to withdrawal my recognition as a commissioned officer. They refused to appoint me a TDS counsel until just days before the board hearing and the TDS counsel excused himself as he could not ethically represent me as he was not given time to prepare. Oh, did I mention I was 'served' for the hearing via an email sent to my personal account? So I went into the board hearing and the result was predictable...it was decided that my fed recognition should be yanked. Well I stroked out and wrote some shall we say excoriating memorandums to 1st Army who chucked the WOFR board results as "someone retired and they couldn't make findings". [BS Flag is thrown as they didn't address the substantive due process violations...]. So they attempted to convene a second one. I countered with 3 federal lawsuits. One dealt with a privacy act violation, one suit dealt with a FOIA related violation, and the third one dealt with the WOFR board that is based on the APA and constitutional due process....all PRO SE. [Note: my memorandums have been noted as being better than some attorneys]
The FOIA lawsuit was based on the Dept. of the Army refusing to turn over the WOFR board audio as the folks who ran the board decided to submit a doctored [fraudulent] transcript that had key testimony either changed or simply left out. Ultimately I received the audio and was able to show and PROVE that the WOFR board gave 'Res Judicata' effect to the AR 15-6 ROI and wouldn't allow me to rebut the damn investigation at the Board even...while also not being able to be given TDS counsel either. Lots of moving parts but I am not one of those folks who tolerate being f*cked with. Dragyyn...contact me privately....may be able to help you with regulations and such. Hopefully you have TDS counsel. If not, get it.
 
The contempt of court was becasue my command didn't let a soldier go to court and testify for me. I made the mistake and told my command about the soldiers that were helping me with my civilian case. The next day, all those that were helping me were approached by their 1SGs and they told them if they continue to help me they will be put under investigation, which would suspend their TS clearances. So because I didn't have anyone to defend me or collaborate my story, the civilian judge held me in contempt, and my commander now has a pattern of misconduct.
 
For commission of a serious offense, you must have done something which would be punishable by a punitive discharge under the Table of Maximum Punishments, MCM. The standard is much lower for a pattern of misconduct. Do you have at least 6 years of service? If so, demand a board of officers. If not and they notify you that the least favorable discharge you could receive is an Under Other Than Honorable Conductions (UOTHC), demand a board of officers. At least there you can present evidence.
 
Are your brushes with the law related to a deployment? Like maybe PTSD, or TBI? What did you find out about MEB? Did you go talk to the Dr as recommended? You are going to have to be very proactive and involved in defending yourself, or the command is going to roll over you. I am guessing at this point they have a pretty big jacket and that's all ammo. Did the civilian case end well, or did it just end with contempt?
 
I went and talked with my Doc and he said that he was going to rewrite the profile. It turns out that they denied the permament profile because I agreed to go to therapy to try and help my shoulder. I have quit therapy since because it is just to painful. It has been 2 weeks and he still hasn't updated it.
The contempt of court isn't deployment related, it was just a judge who didn't like me. We have an appeal going though becuase my attorney said that she oversteped her authority. I have a appointment tomorrow with a Doc from the VA about my shoulder and ankle, hopefully he can write me up a perm. profile and will get approved.
 
Draagyn said:
The contempt of court isn't deployment related, it was just a judge who didn't like me. We have an appeal going though becuase my attorney said that she oversteped her authority. I have a appointment tomorrow with a Doc from the VA about my shoulder and ankle, hopefully he can write me up a perm. profile and will get approved.
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Contempt of court (without a trial) is going to have been just a civil issue; being found in contempt is normally just a court exercising its inherent power to regulate proceedings before it and to force compliance with its own orders. It is not a crime. (There is such a thing as criminal contempt, but that gives you the right to be tried on the issue). Sounds like the military is misunderstanding this point. I don't see how a civil contempt could be misconduct that would form the basis for a separation.
 
My COC has tried to chapter a lot of Soldiers and for those with serious medical issues when they got to he medical portion of the seperation the Drs. would not sign off on the chapter due to the med issues. This might not alwaysbe true but it occurred five times now. Good luck.
 
My CoC just counseled me for going to my appointment. Back in November my platoon seargeant told me that I have to give him an appointment slip for any appointment. Today I went and saw a phycologyst and she told me that I don't have to tell anyone that I am talking to her, but I still informed my CoC that I had a medical appointment before I went. They now put me in a computer lab for my place of duty, doing nothing, just sitting here. In the counseling it also stated that I have to get a letter from my attorney in order to see him, that will cost me a minimun of $35 to have that done per the contract that I have with him. I have requested to talk to the BC twice now to discuss getting a rehabilitative transfer per AR 635-200, but they aren't letting me see her. Any advice on what to do next?
 
At first blush, while this sounds like harassment, a counseling statement by itself is nothing to be worried about. The concern, though, is that they are trying to build a case for pattern of misconduct discharge.

I think it is blatantly illegal to require a letter from your attorney. They cannot (and have no legal basis) for requiring that. I think that would form the basis for a solid IG complaint. However, you have to weigh everything and figure out what is right for you. As far as denying you access to your BC? Nope, that seems foul, too. I would ask about the open door policy. You have a right to see your commanders. You always have option to resolve things informally, but if not, you can go to the IG, or file a Congressional.
 
Draagyn said:
My CoC just counseled me for going to my appointment. Back in November my platoon seargeant told me that I have to give him an appointment slip for any appointment. Today I went and saw a phycologyst and she told me that I don't have to tell anyone that I am talking to her, but I still informed my CoC that I had a medical appointment before I went. They now put me in a computer lab for my place of duty, doing nothing, just sitting here. In the counseling it also stated that I have to get a letter from my attorney in order to see him, that will cost me a minimun of $35 to have that done per the contract that I have with him. I have requested to talk to the BC twice now to discuss getting a rehabilitative transfer per AR 635-200, but they aren't letting me see her. Any advice on what to do next?
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Every Commander has an open door policy and your COC cannot stop you from exercising it. The timing, conduct, and specific procedures of the open door policy are determined by the Commander. Ask your COC to see the Battalion Commander's Open Door Policy. By regulation, it is supposed to be posted in an area where it is accessible for Soldiers to view. If you have requested to use it twice and have been denied, you have a right to take it to IG so they can correct the action.
 
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