Army officer elimination vs IDES

kit22

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
Hello,

I'm an Army officer undergoing dual-process separation (elimination and IDES). 1) HRC initiated my elimination, because I resigned from my training in order to receive mental health treatment, upon the recommendation of my Army psychiatrist. There was no misconduct. 2) At the same time, I underwent IDES processing for mental health issues. The PEB found me unfit and recommended 70% PDRL.

I recently was surprised to learn that the CG recommended elimination instead of medical retirement. I understand my case now goes to SECARMY for a final decision.

My questions:
- Does SECARMY typically accept the CG's recommendation?
- If SECARMY recommends elimination, what are my options to contest this recommendation?
- If I am eliminated, how likely is it that the Army will expect recoupment? (The Army funded my schooling)

I appreciate any thoughts you all have. Thank you.
 
Hello,

I'm an Army officer undergoing dual-process separation (elimination and IDES). 1) HRC initiated my elimination, because I resigned from my training in order to receive mental health treatment, upon the recommendation of my Army psychiatrist. There was no misconduct. 2) At the same time, I underwent IDES processing for mental health issues. The PEB found me unfit and recommended 70% PDRL.

I recently was surprised to learn that the CG recommended elimination instead of medical retirement. I understand my case now goes to SECARMY for a final decision.

My questions:
- Does SECARMY typically accept the CG's recommendation?
- If SECARMY recommends elimination, what are my options to contest this recommendation?
- If I am eliminated, how likely is it that the Army will expect recoupment? (The Army funded my schooling)

I appreciate any thoughts you all have. Thank you.
You have a right to counsel in this process. What has JAG said? Are you a probationary officer or non probationary officer? Have you been in for 5 years or more?
 
You have a right to counsel in this process. What has JAG said? Are you a probationary officer or non probationary officer? Have you been in for 5 years or more?
I'm an active-duty, non-probationary officer. I've been in for 10 years (8 of which were school).

I have talked with lawyers (civilian and military), but they haven't been terribly helpful. They just confirm what I know to be the case from my reading of the regulations... that although it seems appropriate that I am medically retired, SECARMY can ultimately do whatever they want.

I'm trying to think ahead regarding my options in the case SECARMY recommends elimination plus recoupment.
 
Hello,

I'm an Army officer undergoing dual-process separation (elimination and IDES). 1) HRC initiated my elimination, because I resigned from my training in order to receive mental health treatment, upon the recommendation of my Army psychiatrist. There was no misconduct. 2) At the same time, I underwent IDES processing for mental health issues. The PEB found me unfit and recommended 70% PDRL.

I recently was surprised to learn that the CG recommended elimination instead of medical retirement. I understand my case now goes to SECARMY for a final decision.

My questions:
- Does SECARMY typically accept the CG's recommendation?
- If SECARMY recommends elimination, what are my options to contest this recommendation?
- If I am eliminated, how likely is it that the Army will expect recoupment? (The Army funded my schooling)

I appreciate any thoughts you all have. Thank you.
What kind of training?
Did you receive a GOMAR?
Was your mental health condition related directly to an event that happened in the military?
Have you deployed to a combat zone?

These are all things that board at DA will consider. I know they say SECARMY, but it’s actually an ADHOC board that makes a recommendation to the DASa.
 
Last edited:
What kind of training?
Did you receive a GOMAR?
Was your mental health condition related directly to an event that happened in the military?
Have you deployed to a combat zone?

These are all things that board at DA will consider. I know they say SECARMY, but it’s actually an ADHOC board that makes a recommendation to the undersecretary.
I did college and medical school funded by the Army. I resigned from medical residency training to receive intensive mental health treatment.

No GOMOR. No disciplinary action.

The MEB/PEB determined that my mental health condition was service-related.

Never deployed.


Thank you for your time. Do you know who comprises the ADHOC board, or what their thought-process might be regarding my case?
 
The final decision for the Secretary of the Army will be made by the Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Army for Review Boards (DASA) within the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Manpower & Reserve Affairs. I do not know the identity of the current DASA, as the position has seen quite a bit of turnover and a series of career SES folks as the acting DASA. The DASA will be made aware of the recommendations of your chain of command and HRC, and will be provided with a summary and analysis of the case by a member of his or her staff, with a recommended action.

Although not provided for in either AR 600-8-24 or AR 635-40, there is nothing to prevent you from submitting a letter or memorandum to the DASA for his or her consideration in which you can explain why you took the actions you did with regard to the training, particularly based on medical advice, and why it is in the interests of justice for the DASA to approve your medical separation or retirement consistent with the IDES process rather than an administrative elimination. Part of that argument can address the punitive and unfair nature of elimination and the likely recoupment of educational costs will have on you, when compared to the mental health issues leading to the situation. Without you raising this issue at this time, the DASA may not factor in the likelihood of a recoupment action in his or her decision making. Although you can certainly send such a letter through your chain of command or HRC, and doing so with a copy is a good idea, sending it directly to the DASA’s office is the safest way to ensure that it may be considered. Keep a record of sending the letter and its receipt.

The final separation decision is one committed to the complete discretion of the DASA and there are no standards or factors that constrain the DASA’s exercise of that discretion beyond the general requirement that the DASA make the decision in writing on the administrative record before him or her. The only administrative appeal from the DASA’s decision would be through an application to the Army Board for Correction of Military Records. Absent some prejudicial error in the way your case was processed, the likelihood of a successful outcome with the ABCMR is remote. The ABCMR will not grant relief based solely on the fact that you disagree with the outcome or thought it was unfair. Similarly, absent some prejudicial error in the processing of your case, judicial review at either the U.S. Court of Federal Claims or a United States district court is unlikely to result in a favorable outcome, due to the complete discretion the DASA has and the deference the courts show to substantive military personnel decisions. Here is how the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit explained it in Wagner v. United States, 365 F.3d 1358, 1364-65 (Fed. Cir. 2004) in an analogous situation involving the Secretary of the Army’s discretionary authority regarding referral of officers to DA Active Duty Boards:

“… had the Army complied with its regulation and the Secretary exercised his discretion, the Secretary’s determination would have been unreviewable by any court. See Sargisson, 913 F.2d at 921–22 (explaining that a fully discretionary decision by the Secretary of the Air Force was “beyond the ken of judicial competence”); Voge, 844 F.2d at 779–81 (declining to review a discretionary decision by the Secretary of the Navy as nonjusticiable). While we may, as we do here, review the DAADB proceedings for compliance with Army regulations, we may not engage in the substantive review of the Secretary’s discretionary decision—or lack thereof—necessary to determine whether the procedural error was harmless.”

Assuming you have a written agreement with the Army regarding the terms and conditions of your education and training and your potential liability to reimburse the government for educational costs if you do not meet the graduation or other professional requirements related to that education, a recoupment action is likely if you are administratively separated rather than medically separated or retired. Ultimately, DFAS is simply the collection agency once the Department of the Army (it used to be the DCSA G-1, but may be different in your case) approves the recoupment action. Although there are provisions to seek waiver of the debt, DFAS will not agree to those as DFAS exercises no independent authority or discretion in such debt collection matters. Absent payment, the Department of Justice will file a lawsuit to obtain a judgment for the amount of the debt.
 
The final decision for the Secretary of the Army will be made by the Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Army for Review Boards (DASA) within the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Manpower & Reserve Affairs. I do not know the identity of the current DASA, as the position has seen quite a bit of turnover and a series of career SES folks as the acting DASA. The DASA will be made aware of the recommendations of your chain of command and HRC, and will be provided with a summary and analysis of the case by a member of his or her staff, with a recommended action.

Although not provided for in either AR 600-8-24 or AR 635-40, there is nothing to prevent you from submitting a letter or memorandum to the DASA for his or her consideration in which you can explain why you took the actions you did with regard to the training, particularly based on medical advice, and why it is in the interests of justice for the DASA to approve your medical separation or retirement consistent with the IDES process rather than an administrative elimination. Part of that argument can address the punitive and unfair nature of elimination and the likely recoupment of educational costs will have on you, when compared to the mental health issues leading to the situation. Without you raising this issue at this time, the DASA may not factor in the likelihood of a recoupment action in his or her decision making. Although you can certainly send such a letter through your chain of command or HRC, and doing so with a copy is a good idea, sending it directly to the DASA’s office is the safest way to ensure that it may be considered. Keep a record of sending the letter and its receipt.

The final separation decision is one committed to the complete discretion of the DASA and there are no standards or factors that constrain the DASA’s exercise of that discretion beyond the general requirement that the DASA make the decision in writing on the administrative record before him or her. The only administrative appeal from the DASA’s decision would be through an application to the Army Board for Correction of Military Records. Absent some prejudicial error in the way your case was processed, the likelihood of a successful outcome with the ABCMR is remote. The ABCMR will not grant relief based solely on the fact that you disagree with the outcome or thought it was unfair. Similarly, absent some prejudicial error in the processing of your case, judicial review at either the U.S. Court of Federal Claims or a United States district court is unlikely to result in a favorable outcome, due to the complete discretion the DASA has and the deference the courts show to substantive military personnel decisions. Here is how the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit explained it in Wagner v. United States, 365 F.3d 1358, 1364-65 (Fed. Cir. 2004) in an analogous situation involving the Secretary of the Army’s discretionary authority regarding referral of officers to DA Active Duty Boards:

“… had the Army complied with its regulation and the Secretary exercised his discretion, the Secretary’s determination would have been unreviewable by any court. See Sargisson, 913 F.2d at 921–22 (explaining that a fully discretionary decision by the Secretary of the Air Force was “beyond the ken of judicial competence”); Voge, 844 F.2d at 779–81 (declining to review a discretionary decision by the Secretary of the Navy as nonjusticiable). While we may, as we do here, review the DAADB proceedings for compliance with Army regulations, we may not engage in the substantive review of the Secretary’s discretionary decision—or lack thereof—necessary to determine whether the procedural error was harmless.”

Assuming you have a written agreement with the Army regarding the terms and conditions of your education and training and your potential liability to reimburse the government for educational costs if you do not meet the graduation or other professional requirements related to that education, a recoupment action is likely if you are administratively separated rather than medically separated or retired. Ultimately, DFAS is simply the collection agency once the Department of the Army (it used to be the DCSA G-1, but may be different in your case) approves the recoupment action. Although there are provisions to seek waiver of the debt, DFAS will not agree to those as DFAS exercises no independent authority or discretion in such debt collection matters. Absent payment, the Department of Justice will file a lawsuit to obtain a judgment for the amount of the debt.
This is excellent advice! Thank you for sharing your knowledge @RetiredAtty !
 
I did college and medical school funded by the Army. I resigned from medical residency training to receive intensive mental health treatment.

No GOMOR. No disciplinary action.

The MEB/PEB determined that my mental health condition was service-related.

Never deployed.


Thank you for your time. Do you know who comprises the ADHOC board, or what their thought-process might be regarding my case?
The retired attorney’s information is excellent. I know you said you’ve met with some attorneys, however you may want to interview a few more. Without knowing the specifics of your case, it’s impossible to make a prediction. It really comes down to the offense and/or severity of misconduct. I was in your situation, and I’ve helped others going through this process. However, mine and the others were for combat PTSD. Officers by and large fair a lot better than enlisted in these situations since officers must go all the way to DASA. A local CG is the final approval authority for enlisted soldiers. If you DM me, I can give you my attorney’s info and discuss specifics more in depth.
 
The final decision for the Secretary of the Army will be made by the Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Army for Review Boards (DASA) within the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Manpower & Reserve Affairs. I do not know the identity of the current DASA, as the position has seen quite a bit of turnover and a series of career SES folks as the acting DASA. The DASA will be made aware of the recommendations of your chain of command and HRC, and will be provided with a summary and analysis of the case by a member of his or her staff, with a recommended action.

Although not provided for in either AR 600-8-24 or AR 635-40, there is nothing to prevent you from submitting a letter or memorandum to the DASA for his or her consideration in which you can explain why you took the actions you did with regard to the training, particularly based on medical advice, and why it is in the interests of justice for the DASA to approve your medical separation or retirement consistent with the IDES process rather than an administrative elimination. Part of that argument can address the punitive and unfair nature of elimination and the likely recoupment of educational costs will have on you, when compared to the mental health issues leading to the situation. Without you raising this issue at this time, the DASA may not factor in the likelihood of a recoupment action in his or her decision making. Although you can certainly send such a letter through your chain of command or HRC, and doing so with a copy is a good idea, sending it directly to the DASA’s office is the safest way to ensure that it may be considered. Keep a record of sending the letter and its receipt.

The final separation decision is one committed to the complete discretion of the DASA and there are no standards or factors that constrain the DASA’s exercise of that discretion beyond the general requirement that the DASA make the decision in writing on the administrative record before him or her. The only administrative appeal from the DASA’s decision would be through an application to the Army Board for Correction of Military Records. Absent some prejudicial error in the way your case was processed, the likelihood of a successful outcome with the ABCMR is remote. The ABCMR will not grant relief based solely on the fact that you disagree with the outcome or thought it was unfair. Similarly, absent some prejudicial error in the processing of your case, judicial review at either the U.S. Court of Federal Claims or a United States district court is unlikely to result in a favorable outcome, due to the complete discretion the DASA has and the deference the courts show to substantive military personnel decisions. Here is how the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit explained it in Wagner v. United States, 365 F.3d 1358, 1364-65 (Fed. Cir. 2004) in an analogous situation involving the Secretary of the Army’s discretionary authority regarding referral of officers to DA Active Duty Boards:

“… had the Army complied with its regulation and the Secretary exercised his discretion, the Secretary’s determination would have been unreviewable by any court. See Sargisson, 913 F.2d at 921–22 (explaining that a fully discretionary decision by the Secretary of the Air Force was “beyond the ken of judicial competence”); Voge, 844 F.2d at 779–81 (declining to review a discretionary decision by the Secretary of the Navy as nonjusticiable). While we may, as we do here, review the DAADB proceedings for compliance with Army regulations, we may not engage in the substantive review of the Secretary’s discretionary decision—or lack thereof—necessary to determine whether the procedural error was harmless.”

Assuming you have a written agreement with the Army regarding the terms and conditions of your education and training and your potential liability to reimburse the government for educational costs if you do not meet the graduation or other professional requirements related to that education, a recoupment action is likely if you are administratively separated rather than medically separated or retired. Ultimately, DFAS is simply the collection agency once the Department of the Army (it used to be the DCSA G-1, but may be different in your case) approves the recoupment action. Although there are provisions to seek waiver of the debt, DFAS will not agree to those as DFAS exercises no independent authority or discretion in such debt collection matters. Absent payment, the Department of Justice will file a lawsuit to obtain a judgment for the amount of the debt.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify the system and offer me advice. I sincerely appreciate it. I will plan to send a letter directly to the DASA.

If anyone knows the current DASA, please let me know.
 
The retired attorney’s information is excellent. I know you said you’ve met with some attorneys, however you may want to interview a few more. Without knowing the specifics of your case, it’s impossible to make a prediction. It really comes down to the offense and/or severity of misconduct. I was in your situation, and I’ve helped others going through this process. However, mine and the others were for combat PTSD. Officers by and large fair a lot better than enlisted in these situations since officers must go all the way to DASA. A local CG is the final approval authority for enlisted soldiers. If you DM me, I can give you my attorney’s info and discuss specifics more in depth.
DMing you now. Thank you.
 
The Honorable Michael T. Mahoney is the current Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Army for Review Boards and the Director, Army Review Boards Agency. His bio information is not readily available but apparently he is a retired Army colonel who has held various senior positions in DA leading to his current assignment.
 
The Honorable Michael T. Mahoney is the current Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Army for Review Boards and the Director, Army Review Boards Agency. His bio information is not readily available but apparently he is a retired Army colonel who has held various senior positions in DA leading to his current assignment.
I was able to confirm this as well. Now just need to find his contact information.

Thank you.
 
Army Review Boards Agency
251 18th Street South, Suite 385
Arlington, VA 22202-3531

Assistant Secretary of the Army for Manpower & Reserve Affairs
111 Army Pentagon, Room 2E460
Washington, DC 20310–0111
phone (703) 545–5639, fax (703) 692–9000 (phone numbers require verification, may not be current or valid)

Mail to the Pentagon is separately screened off site which may take several weeks or more. Mail to ARBA in Arlington, VA will be processed more quickly.
 
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