Gay Marriage is a Constitutional Right!

Jason Perry

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There will likely be no dearth of commentary about this (whether it is right, wrong, should have been decided on different terms, whatever).

I believe that as a matter of law this was a correct decision. I also believe, having made it through four decades of life and not having my marriage to my beautiful wife been threatened once by anything that anyone else has done, straight, gay, undecided, etc., and having known many gay people serving well and honorably, that this was a morally correct outcome.

My real reason for posting here is that I suspect that there will be a lot of Servicemembers and Veterans who will be impacted by this decision. This thread is a starter. I will probably look to set up a separate thread or forum for folks who may be impacted.

America is strong. It has been strong and continues to be strong based on the willingness of great people to step forward and serve. Some of these folks are homosexual. They deserve the same respect and courtesy as heterosexual folks. I think the world and the United States is a better place because their rights to marriage are guaranteed, just like anyone else.
 
My opinion: this is far from over... Let's go beyond the gay weddings and bakeries that refuse to bake gay wedding cakes for a moment... What happens when a gay couple decides that they simply must be married in say, a southern Baptist Church and said Church refuses? Will Gay rights trump religious freedom? When will I, as a white, Christian, straight, male be allowed to simply have an opinion on this or any other issue for that matter, without being automatically labelled a bigot, racist, hater etc?
 
When will I, as a white, Christian, straight, male be allowed to simply have an opinion on this or any other issue for that matter, without being automatically labelled a bigot, racist, hater etc?

My guess is you won't get labelled any of those without expressing opinions which reflect those values.
 
I doubt it... Today's left is rabid, they will shred anyone who disagrees with their views as being homo or trans phobic. Having an opinion is no longer an option in their eyes.


And for the record, my wife and I were married before a court in Manama Bahrain. We did not get married in a Church because there were none in Bahrain, and Islamic mosques do not marry anyone that is not a Muslim. Nor did we wish to be married in a mosque. And so we had no choice. I did not get a straight marriage in a Church for religious freedom reasons.... But I'll bet today's liberal progressives will try and force this issue down the Christian Churches throat.... Try to force them to do something they believe strongly against.
 
Nobody said they didn't deserve those rights... Don't put words into my mouth.
 
The reasoning that Justice Kennedy used strikes me as a travesty. I find the whole notion of marriage as a benefit instead of a responsibility wrong headed and both sides improperly frame the argument around why benefits are denied. Screwing a group out of benefits is pretty anti-American as far as I'm concerned, and someone wanting to take on responsibilities seems non-problematic.

As far as Christianity goes, my reading of the bible suggests homosexuality is about on the level of sex outside of marriage as far as sins go. Both fall under fornication. The stories of shotgun weddings suggest the old school punishment for getting caught having sex outside of marriage is usually forced marriage. Seems ironic that homosexuals seem to be seeking to be similarly punished and really makes me wonder how anti-Christian homosexual marriages are. The problem really is that many people think a kid deserves a mother and a father and that gender/sex still matters. That argument was lost long ago, at least as far as laws are concerned.
 
My opinion: this is far from over... Let's go beyond the gay weddings and bakeries that refuse to bake gay wedding cakes for a moment... What happens when a gay couple decides that they simply must be married in say, a southern Baptist Church and said Church refuses? Will Gay rights trump religious freedom? When will I, as a white, Christian, straight, male be allowed to simply have an opinion on this or any other issue for that matter, without being automatically labelled a bigot, racist, hater etc?


As long as the opinion does not include... Fornicator, sinner, burn in hell, cursing, or anything like that, opine away. My issue is when people I served with start bashing and bring in the old testament when they said themselves... that the old testament is no longer upheld... well then... love thy neighbor and respect their wishes. Marriage is older than Christianity believe it or not, and in many cultures... multiple people are in the marriage, not just one man and one woman. So, be understanding and if you don't want a gay marriage, don't get one. Simple as that. Don't want one in your church? Don't have one in it. Now as for the churches, none of my friends that are gay are stupid enough to force a wedding in a church. They just went to the court house. Common sense dictates that if your preacher is telling you that you are a sinner and are going to burn in hell... you don't want to ask to be married there. As for me, I could care less. I have a wife and two boys... daughter on the way any day now. I actually did get married in a church which is funny because I am an agnostic atheist. Its not so much of a not knowing whether I believe in anything or not... I just don't care to. I say let them wed, let them be, and move on. Blowing up facebook and throwing tantrums wont solve anything... now when is this Pastor Rick going to set himself on fire? That is the only thing I care about... dumb people promising stupid crap. Oh, and those couples that vowed divorce if it passed... wanna read those divorce proceedings.
 
The court opinion state's two consenting adults should be able to marry. What about a parent and an "of age" child? By doing so, the parent's estate could be passed to the child "spouse" without taxes. The parent could pass on their social security and retirement benefits to the child "spouse". A child could make a parent "spouse" eligible for health care benefits. Why should parent/of age child marriages be illegal if both are consenting adults? Can anybody make the argument that such a marriage should not be legal given the rational of the court's decision?

As for me, I am a one life, one wife kind of guy. However, if my wife precedes me in death, and I happen to have an 18 year old grandson who is severely physically disabled, why not marry him so he can have access to my Tricare and VA benefits, 55% of my military retirement, social security benefits and inheritance of my assets without estate tax.

Mike
 
My wife and I talked about the Supreme Court decision, neither one of us is very religious, and a few of our family and best friends happen to be gay. There was a time not to long ago that mixed race marriages and marriages outside your own faith were against the law or at the very least not socially accepted. To hell with that, if two adults (not of blood relation, though Mike Parker did bring up an interesting legal conundrum) love each other and want to seal that bond with a marriage and all the responsibilities and benefits that entails, then yes in America (at least the America that I believe in) gay marriage should be allowed.

As for Tony's concern that the left will now try and force gay marriages into churches that don't religiously support such views. Fear not, we also live in a our where Freedom of Religion is a cornerstone of our Individual Rights. If someone (anyone) where to try and force a marriage to take place in your church that went against your churches values I feel absolutely confident that your Right to Religious Freedom would be held higher than their preference to location of the ceremony in the eyes of the law.

The world changes, we (hopefully) evolve, and things will not remain the same. We I was young, gays were socially ostracized and outright hated for being gay, and blacks were beaten and killed in the deep South for marching peacefully for their Rights. I for one welcome change, when it comes to better upholding the basic ideal that ALL Americans are equal and should not be separated and grouped aside and discriminated upon because of some arbitrary boundary of race, religion, sex, or sexual preference. To me accepting the Rights of others, whether you agree with them or not, puts the United in the United States.

We ALL have the Right to live our lives in this country as we see fit, we can worship or not worship in the church of our choice, marry the (consenting non blood relation adult) of our choice, and with these Rights are simply duty and morally bound to respect the Rights of others. I didn't really go to war(s) to fight for American ideals, the flag, or apple pie (the recent war(s) have not boiled down to that kind of conflict), I went to protect my fellow Soldiers, but if I had fought solely for American ideals this Supreme Court decision is a part of the ideal that I would be glad to defend.

My 2 cents...
 
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To add to the legal conundrum, two of my children are not related by blood. And legally, love is not a prerequisite for marriage.

Mike
 
To add to the legal conundrum, two of my children are not related by blood. And legally, love is not a prerequisite for marriage.

Mike
How did this challenge not exist prior to the new ruling? If the old ruling simply said that "marriage is solely between a man and a woman", wouldn't the loophole exist prior if the parent and child were of an opposite sex? My guess is that there are other laws on the books outlawing the marriage of a parent to a child, don't know if that applies to step parents as well, that's Jerry Springer territory.
 
I am sure there are state laws with such prohibitions. In their ruling, the court used the words two consenting adults, not two consenting, non related adults. I suppose states prohibited such marriages because of the increase risk of birth defects. However, that is not an issue if two related same sex adults marry. The court decision speaks of procreation nor even the attempt to procreate as being a prerequisite for marriage.

Mike
 
Whatever your views, just be prepared to have your first amendment rights taken from you, whatever you say, if your opinion doesn't fully adhere to the whims of the LBTG movement, it will eventually be turned against you as hate speech
. Look at what happened to the CEO of Mozilla a while back.... This is where we are headed. Gays will not be satisfied merely being married in a court....

Food for thought:

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14899/
 
Some brief thoughts on some of the comments:

As to marriage "rights" between ANY two consenting adults who happen to be related to each other, this issue is currently regulated by state laws. Some states prohibit cousins of certain consanguinity from marrying, others don't. There are varying levels of consanguinity that are prohibited for marriage under state law.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-laws-regarding-marriages-between-first-cousi.aspx


(Though @maparker specifically avoids the incest issue with marriage between relatives, I do think incest is where a really indepth look at the issue has to go; here are two articles about that issue:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=442520 (this one is good, too, because it makes the point about standing and public support making abolishment of laws and/or establishment of a constitutional right to incest unlikely).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/23/adult-incest-and-the-law/ )
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/04/us/few-risks-seen-to-the-children-of-1st-cousins.html )

Essentially, either marriage between relatives, or the other common slippery slope argument raised, polygamy, is not going to happen. A smarter lawyer than me, Prof. Eugene Volokh, has already covered the topic:

http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/marriage.pdf (Prof. Volokh covered it in 40 pages....I am giving it a paragraph or two; if you get through it all, you will see the persuasive points he makes, which I generally agree with).

Though this may sound like reductive reasoning (especially as to the legal arguments), the main point is that there is no significant support for a Constitutional-based rule extending the right to marriage for closely related folks (similar to the incest issue, referenced above). There are a lot of procedural hurdles that would have to be crossed- which never would- in order to get a challenge to the denial of the "right" to marry for related folks before the Supreme Court. There are standing issues- you would need a plaintiff (or plaintiffs) to file cases in District Court- I can't imagine that there would ever be many willing to do so. And, unlike with gay folks, there is not going to be lawyers or law firms willing to take up the battle pro-bono. So, you would essentially need to have two someones who want to get married, but are closely related, actually try to get married, be denied, and then have the money to spend on costly and lengthy litigation in the District Court, then in the Circuit Court, and they would lose at every step. Then, they would have to pay for trying to get a grant of certiorari which would be denied. For very practical reasons- outside of the legal issues- this is just not going to happen (certainly, the cost in litigation- which they would lose- would trump any benefits they might gain by marrying....and at least as far as estate purposes go, a good Trusts and Estates attorney would be able to accomplish many goals much cheaper).

As to folks who object to gay marriage or homosexuality generally, they will not and cannot lose their "First Amendment Rights." Now, some may debate this and- like anything- definitions matter. But, as lawyers generally understand the issues, it is not the case that people are going to be forced to believe in something, state something or associate with someone that they don't want to.

Hold on a minute, some might say- what about hate speech? That concept has stripped some people of their First Amendment rights! Despite popular misunderstanding, there is no "Hate Speech" exception to the First Amendment:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/

(I want to be careful about creating a straw man argument here- or at least acknowledge that is what I may have done).

As to people labeling/disliking/criticising folks who have different beliefs, yes that can and does happen- but, that is not a First Amendment issue. Social opinion and mores change. I would hope that people who are on opposite sides of issue would show everyone the same respect and courtesy that they want for themselves, their friends and families. Truth is, though, that folks have often fallen short of this mark.

Recall, the main point in my posting this thread in the first place was to alert folks that there are likely going to be issues with military and veterans benefits that will be impacted by this ruling. (It sure wasn't to break the news to folks- unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that this site is a primary news source for people and cable tv, newspapers and radio are where I am sure most folks learned of the ruling).
 
When reading Obergefell, my jaw dropped at Chief Justice Roberts' dissent to the effect that "marriage exists for procreation": which, by the by, begs the point that Chief Justice Roberts has adopted children. I see the rationale for marriage equality on the basis of equal protection and due process, along with the fundamental right for marriage within the penumbra of rights of the federal Constitution; in a word, an air-tight case.

I have helped some LGBTQ servicemembers on a pro bono basis in times past, and no doubt will in the future. Whether married or not, I have always tried to help them gain what was their rights under the statutes and the VA regs in medical separation from the services. It seems to me that military service makes us all equal.
 
Marriage exists for the purpose of expansion. Hell, even in the bible you had handmaids to bare children when the wife was infertile... hmm... infertility was an issue back then? Yes it was. Marriage in every society was a way of building and strengthening families which in turn became a neighborhood, which grew into a town, into a suburb, joined several others to form a city, which became a city-state, all the way until you have a big bloated country... Marriages built integral bonds that brought cultures together. Procreation just happens to be a perk to a marriage which furthers the familial dynasty. Why do you think there are arranged marriages? As for marrying relatives... in certain circumstance... the first cousin. The union cannot create offspring in most cases...

http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-laws-regarding-marriages-between-first-cousi.aspx

Oh... and Alabama... the state that allowed everything BUT gay marriage...

Section 30-1-3
Issue of incestuous marriages not deemed illegitimate.
The issue of any incestuous marriage, before the same is annulled, shall not be deemed illegitimate.
(Code 1852, §1945; Code 1867, §2334; Code 1876, §2673; Code 1886, §2310; Code 1896, §2840; Code 1907, §4880; Code 1923, §8994; Code 1940, T. 34, §3.)

Meaning... only state where you can marry anyone in your family... possibly due to heavy influence to religion. Abraham married his sister in the bible. In a Levrite marriage, you can marry your sibling's widow. First cousins are not mentioned at all in the bible and so many still allow it. But Alabama... incestuous marriages are legitimate... and therefore legal. Mind boggling.

South Carolina allowed a brother and sister to marry but the husband was infertile and knowledge of kinship was not known until after they went to a Planned Parenthood. With sperm donors this will be a not so uncommon issue because that story was the fourth time I heard of an issue like that.
 
Does incest require sex? I would say yes. Does a marriage mandate sex? I would say no.

So why would a non sexual marriage between two consenting, related adults for financial convience be illegal given the rational of the Supreme Court's decision?

Jason, part of your argument as to why this would not happen is based on such a marriage being denied and the extreme legal hurdles to overcome that prohibition. What if the marriage was legal? I just ran into the same Alabama law that Daniel did that does not prohibit related marriages in Alabama. What if Alabama or some other state declares any marriage between any two consenting adults as legitimate? Would other states have to recognize such a marriage? Would Alabama step up and fight the issue in court? Alabama might just to make the point. If it did go to the Supreme Court, could they rule against it without contradicting the same rationale they used to justify same sex marriage?

Again, if incest is the problem with such marriages that would be based on the issue of genetic consequences. This would be a non issue in same sex, related marriage or a non sexual marriage of convienence. I note several of the states allow first cousin marriages if there is no chance of conceiving a child. Without the chance of conception, the relationship just becomes icky as many view same sex relationships. In many states, a simple vasectomy will allow for first cousins to marry. Why would the rationale be different for a patent/child or grandparent/child marriage? I would be first to step up and state such a relationship would be icky but whom am I to judge?

My point centers on the exploitation of the law to protect and preserve family financial resources via a non sexual marriage between two related adults. We see this when people move resources off shore or when parents divest their assets to their children before going into a nursing home. There is a strong motivation to do this and a there is a whole industry with this focus. I wonder if that industry will move into this realm as another strategy. They certainly have the assets to push the issue.


Check out this article where New York ruled an uncle and niece could get married. The rationale center on the low probability of genetic consequences. Again, no genetic consequences are possible between two related adults when at least one is infertile or they are the same sex.

http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/new-york-state-blesses-incest-marriage-between-uncle-niece/
 
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