Help? Long post!

Peas

Peas

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
First time poster, long time reader. I'm having quite the headache right now and need to vent. I apologize in advance if this is too long :(

I'm a SPC in the Army, and I've been in for 2 years 2 months. I passed Basic Training with flying colors, and moved on to AIT where I studied my MOS (25U). There, in AIT, I got hurt while training. I was on crutches at one point, and seeing a doctor multiple times a month for my pain. They thought it was just sciatica, or a foot problem (plantar fasciitis) and a ROM issue in my hip. Anyways, this was after I took my first PT test in AIT, and so, the company Commander gave me a waiver to get out of AIT, because I graduated as Honor Grad in my class, and continue to my duty station.

I arrived to my unit. I tried running, thinking, maybe that I would be okay and that the pain was just a fluke. I was highly motivated to put a good foot forward at my first unit! I ran for about a month and a half, and was having ridiculous back pain that I finally went in to my sick call where I got a temporary profile for a weeks to run at own pace. Great. I ran at own pace, but was still having that horrible back pain.

Running wasn't cutting it anymore, so I finally got hooked up with a physical therapist and a chiropractor. I had countless appointments with both before I found out I was pregnant in late October 2012. I still continued to see the chiropractor and physical therapist (even did a month of pool physical therapy which was awesome) until they said they couldn't do much for me now that I was half way through my pregnancy.

I let my temporary profile for no running/low back pain expire because I couldn't run while pregnant anyways. I had my daughter June 2013, and came back from Maternity leave totally motivated and ready to possibly run again. I thought, maybe if I just take it slow while in Post-partum PT that I would be able to build some strength. Nope. Horrible pain in my lower back. I went back to the chiropractor and he said he wanted to see how I did doing PT. Great. I did PT, came back the next time complaining of my feet going numb. He said that sounded like a classic bulging disc issue and sent me to my units PCM. My units PCM ordered me a MRI.

Received MRI, then saw chiropractor again. Voila. Mild bulging discs L2-S1, arthritis, and DDD. I've been on a basically "Dead Man's" profile for 6 months now. I was just recently flagged for weight (a week ago) - I'm working as hard as I can nutritionally and physically to lose this last little bit of weight - by my Commander; who had nothing better to do then count down the days that he could height/weight/tape me. It created a very uncomfortable work environment for me - especially since I'm dealing with PPD.

Anyways, I went and saw the actual PA - a Colonel - at my unit clinic over holiday break. He recommended me a "possible MEB if all MI's fail to work (medical interventions)" and told me to go see my treating doctor (chiropractor) and have him put "recommend MEB" in my notes. Great. I did that. My chiropractor definitely agrees that I should be MEB, as there is nothing left for him to do for me. I've seen Pain Management, I've seen the Pain Clinic, I've done medication, I've done Physical Therapy.

After all that, I went and sat down with the BDE Surgeon (who I guess the MEB packets have to go through first???). He said that since I hadn't (his words here) "Fallen off a truck or something" that how I got hurt wasn't "Good enough for medical retirement" and that I should be "Chaptered for Failure to Adapt". Icing on the cake? He called my 1SG and asked him what they should "do with [her] me". He even wrote a memo and sent it to my Command, that says "X-ray and MRI have failed to find any significant abnormalities." Really??? That's not what my MRI report says.

I immediately got in touch with the Ombudsman here, and told him my story. I was reassured that I cannot be chaptered for failure to adapt, or weight; since I have to go to JAG before anything proceeds from either of those and I can show them my MRI report/AR 40-501/Multiple Recc's for MEB, etc. and they will not allow my command to essentially screw me over.

It just boggles my mind that this is happening to me. Has anyone dealt with this issue before? My Ombudsman went to JAG today, but I haven't heard from him yet and will be calling him tomorrow. Should I just go to JAG myself?? Or should I just trust the Ombudsman? I'm just really internally freaking out.

Any advice? I'm going to fight this to the bitter end!
 
trust but verify. you should be MEB'd, you may nto get retirement, you may get nothing because they may claim it existed prior to service etc. there may be many a fight ahead of you or it may go smoothly. whatever happens, do not let them get away with a chapter etc. without exploring all medical options and/or treatment, and MEB avenues.

Additionally, have you had your hips mri'd with contrast to check for labral tearing? Ask about femoral acetabular impingment and/or torn detached labrums. Your symptoms are almost exactly what a lot of folks go through with the conditions ( docs all push back pain back pain back pain) when the mild back arthritis/decay is due to poor hip structure causing bad gait causing back problems. Here is the kicker, you cannot see torn labrum or FAI with regular x-ray IT MUST HAVE CONTRAST/ be called an MRA.
 
I'm definitely not looking or hoping for a medical retirement, I just want to be medically separated. I feel like the fight has already started, but I'm just freaking out and having a hard time keeping my head up and not letting them do this to me - for the sake of my daughter. I do know that when you're put on the weight control program that you can opt to be medically looked at (which I did opt for that).

I haven't had my hips MRI'd with contrast. I will bring that up with my new PCM when I see her next, hopefully next week at the latest.

Thank you so much!
 
before warrior chimes in and ruins my parade :) never accept anything less than what you perceive to be just. Work with your patient advocate, work with your command, do not "give up", its not just for your daughter, its not just for you, it is for every single Sodlier, Airman, Marine, Sailor, Coastie that has to put up with this stuff, the old school
"you didnt get shot in war so your not a vet" or your "faking it to get more money" etc. Do your job to the best of your abilities, and continue to get as much medical treatment as you can. and report the hell out of that doc.
 
TSgt Twitch said:
before warrior chimes in and ruins my parade :) never accept anything less than what you perceive to be just. Work with your patient advocate, work with your command, do not "give up", its not just for your daughter, its not just for you, it is for every single Sodlier, Airman, Marine, Sailor, Coastie that has to put up with this stuff, the old school
"you didnt get shot in war so your not a vet" or your "faking it to get more money" etc. Do your job to the best of your abilities, and continue to get as much medical treatment as you can. and report the hell out of that doc.
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Indeed, with staying in the warfighter spirit, it's definitely time to ruin your parade if I am truly the "warrior" you mentioned above! :D

On a serious note, good deal brother; you are doing great work...I shall continue to look forward to reading your sound insightful information supportive to each PEB Forum member's inquiry! :cool:

Thus, I quite often comment that "possessing well-informed knowledge is truly a powerful equalizer."

Best Wishes!
 
Warrior644 said:
Indeed, with staying in the warfighter spirit, it's definitely time to ruin your parade if I am truly the "warrior" you mentioned above! :D

On a serious note, good deal brother; you are doing great work...I shall continue to look forward to reading your sound insightful information supportive to each PEB Forum member's inquiry! :cool:

Thus, I quite often comment that "possessing well-informed knowledge is truly a powerful equalizer."

Best Wishes!
Click to expand...

You are indeed the warrior :), I think its great we have the same motivations behind our actions of assisting others and I know in my case, it is almost therapeutic to be able to be helpful still. I often think of myself as I have mentioned before as what I envisioned I would be like as a chief, or as I envision a chief should be. Done with the careerism and in it only to support the troops who support the mission, someone with nothing left to gain (or loose) and able to risk one's self by raising the BS flag when necessary. In regards to cases like this or a few others going on right now, We have seen o-6's and E-9's going through this process not able to get answers, so how the heck is Amn snuffy or Private dufflebag ever gonna learn to be their own advocate without folks like you. Even the recent increase with PDBR cases appearing on here tells me it takes months/years for folks to even realize the DoD may have messed them over. It is a hot mess, and it takes a cool head filled with stuff everyone thinks is useless information until it affects them to help out. So we learn, we apply and at the end of the day if we make even the smallest difference it becomes a major victory against the forces of red tape and pencil whipped documents filled out to expedite ones removal from a situation.
 
Twitch,

You are so right. I've said this several times going through this process, if I have to fight to find out things, and I have an Anchor giving me weight behind my demands, wtf chance does Seaman Snuffy have of going through this process. I stay out of the IDES questions, because the CG is still Legacy, but I reach out to all the Coasties I see posting and will continue to do so long after I'm retired from this process.
It really gives me a warm fuzzy to see people like you, warrior, grizz and several others that continue and look out for "JOE".
 
I really do appreciate all the advice you guys give on this forum. It has given me a LOT of hope! And the will to fight for what I deserve. :)
 
TSgt Twitch said:
You are indeed the warrior :), I think its great we have the same motivations behind our actions of assisting others and I know in my case, it is almost therapeutic to be able to be helpful still. I often think of myself as I have mentioned before as what I envisioned I would be like as a chief, or as I envision a chief should be. Done with the careerism and in it only to support the troops who support the mission, someone with nothing left to gain (or loose) and able to risk one's self by raising the BS flag when necessary. In regards to cases like this or a few others going on right now, We have seen o-6's and E-9's going through this process not able to get answers, so how the heck is Amn snuffy or Private dufflebag ever gonna learn to be their own advocate without folks like you. Even the recent increase with PDBR cases appearing on here tells me it takes months/years for folks to even realize the DoD may have messed them over. It is a hot mess, and it takes a cool head filled with stuff everyone thinks is useless information until it affects them to help out. So we learn, we apply and at the end of the day if we make even the smallest difference it becomes a major victory against the forces of red tape and pencil whipped documents filled out to expedite ones removal from a situation.
Click to expand...

Indeed, I concur 100%; we all are truly one in mind and action! :)

To that extent, I appreciate everybody's effort and dedication on this site for sure! Thanks! :cool:

Thus, I quite often comment that "possessing well-informed knowledge is truly a powerful equalizer."

Best Wishes!
 
tsj12bbm said:
Twitch,

You are so right. I've said this several times going through this process, if I have to fight to find out things, and I have an Anchor giving me weight behind my demands, wtf chance does Seaman Snuffy have of going through this process. I stay out of the IDES questions, because the CG is still Legacy, but I reach out to all the Coasties I see posting and will continue to do so long after I'm retired from this process.
It really gives me a warm fuzzy to see people like you, warrior, grizz and several others that continue and look out for "JOE".
Click to expand...

Again, thanks from me; leading, supervising and mentoring military service members from a military active duty viewpoint shall unfortunately terminate soon for me! :(

To that extent, we all are truly one in mind and are definitely making a difference via the resources on this site for sure in my opinion! :)

Thus, I quite often comment that "possessing well-informed knowledge is truly a powerful equalizer."

Best Wishes!
 
I have an update! The original Ombudsman I was seeing (Mr. I) called me today and said he had sat down with the BDE Surgeon apparently and had a "long talk" with him that just ended up in Mr. I taking said Surgeon for his word that my MRI showed nothing. Wow. I was furious!! I went straight to the other Ombudsman (Mr. Y) - the one who had reassured me that everything would be OK - and he was extremely irritated by Mr. I and his lack of doing his damn job.

Anyways, Mr. Y is going to the Sergeant Major of JAG tomorrow and will be calling me. I feel a lot more comfortable with this Ombudsman because he knows his job completely! He said he's willing to persue this all the way up the chain.

Fingers crossed he gets some good results for me tomorrow!!
 
Peas said:
I have an update! The original Ombudsman I was seeing (Mr. I) called me today and said he had sat down with the BDE Surgeon apparently and had a "long talk" with him that just ended up in Mr. I taking said Surgeon for his word that my MRI showed nothing. Wow. I was furious!! I went straight to the other Ombudsman (Mr. Y) - the one who had reassured me that everything would be OK - and he was extremely irritated by Mr. I and his lack of doing his damn job.

Anyways, Mr. Y is going to the Sergeant Major of JAG tomorrow and will be calling me. I feel a lot more comfortable with this Ombudsman because he knows his job completely! He said he's willing to persue this all the way up the chain.

Fingers crossed he gets some good results for me tomorrow!!
Click to expand...

Wow; simply amazing indeed! :mad:

To that extent, I totally comprehend your heightened anxiety and continuing frustration in reference to your situation at this point!

Nonetheless, please continue to push onward in a positively proactive manner; to that extent, you shall definitely succeed in my opinion! :)

Thus, I quite often comment that "possessing well-informed knowledge is truly a powerful equalizer."

Best Wishes!
 
Peas said:
First time poster, long time reader. I'm having quite the headache right now and need to vent. I apologize in advance if this is too long :(

I'm a SPC in the Army, and I've been in for 2 years 2 months. I passed Basic Training with flying colors, and moved on to AIT where I studied my MOS (25U). There, in AIT, I got hurt while training. I was on crutches at one point, and seeing a doctor multiple times a month for my pain. They thought it was just sciatica, or a foot problem (plantar fasciitis) and a ROM issue in my hip. Anyways, this was after I took my first PT test in AIT, and so, the company Commander gave me a waiver to get out of AIT, because I graduated as Honor Grad in my class, and continue to my duty station.

I arrived to my unit. I tried running, thinking, maybe that I would be okay and that the pain was just a fluke. I was highly motivated to put a good foot forward at my first unit! I ran for about a month and a half, and was having ridiculous back pain that I finally went in to my sick call where I got a temporary profile for a weeks to run at own pace. Great. I ran at own pace, but was still having that horrible back pain.

Running wasn't cutting it anymore, so I finally got hooked up with a physical therapist and a chiropractor. I had countless appointments with both before I found out I was pregnant in late October 2012. I still continued to see the chiropractor and physical therapist (even did a month of pool physical therapy which was awesome) until they said they couldn't do much for me now that I was half way through my pregnancy.

I let my temporary profile for no running/low back pain expire because I couldn't run while pregnant anyways. I had my daughter June 2013, and came back from Maternity leave totally motivated and ready to possibly run again. I thought, maybe if I just take it slow while in Post-partum PT that I would be able to build some strength. Nope. Horrible pain in my lower back. I went back to the chiropractor and he said he wanted to see how I did doing PT. Great. I did PT, came back the next time complaining of my feet going numb. He said that sounded like a classic bulging disc issue and sent me to my units PCM. My units PCM ordered me a MRI.

Received MRI, then saw chiropractor again. Voila. Mild bulging discs L2-S1, arthritis, and DDD. I've been on a basically "Dead Man's" profile for 6 months now. I was just recently flagged for weight (a week ago) - I'm working as hard as I can nutritionally and physically to lose this last little bit of weight - by my Commander; who had nothing better to do then count down the days that he could height/weight/tape me. It created a very uncomfortable work environment for me - especially since I'm dealing with PPD.

Anyways, I went and saw the actual PA - a Colonel - at my unit clinic over holiday break. He recommended me a "possible MEB if all MI's fail to work (medical interventions)" and told me to go see my treating doctor (chiropractor) and have him put "recommend MEB" in my notes. Great. I did that. My chiropractor definitely agrees that I should be MEB, as there is nothing left for him to do for me. I've seen Pain Management, I've seen the Pain Clinic, I've done medication, I've done Physical Therapy.

After all that, I went and sat down with the BDE Surgeon (who I guess the MEB packets have to go through first???). He said that since I hadn't (his words here) "Fallen off a truck or something" that how I got hurt wasn't "Good enough for medical retirement" and that I should be "Chaptered for Failure to Adapt". Icing on the cake? He called my 1SG and asked him what they should "do with [her] me". He even wrote a memo and sent it to my Command, that says "X-ray and MRI have failed to find any significant abnormalities." Really??? That's not what my MRI report says.

I immediately got in touch with the Ombudsman here, and told him my story. I was reassured that I cannot be chaptered for failure to adapt, or weight; since I have to go to JAG before anything proceeds from either of those and I can show them my MRI report/AR 40-501/Multiple Recc's for MEB, etc. and they will not allow my command to essentially screw me over.

It just boggles my mind that this is happening to me. Has anyone dealt with this issue before? My Ombudsman went to JAG today, but I haven't heard from him yet and will be calling him tomorrow. Should I just go to JAG myself?? Or should I just trust the Ombudsman? I'm just really internally freaking out.

Any advice? I'm going to fight this to the bitter end!
Click to expand...

There are some potential injustices taking place, if the BDE Surgeon is spouting of Chapter 11, failure to adapt, he is a little off base AR 635-200 is the regulation that covers enlisted active duty separations, chapter 11 covers failure to adapt, failure to adapt is a term that is used commonly with entry level separations (basic training and AIT). If you have been in for two years and two months, graduated from AIT and moved onto a unit, then you are clearly not entry level.

There is the possibility that the BDE surgeon could adjust fire and try to discharge you for a condition not a disability (also know as existed prior to service) however there is a pretty strong burden of proof they must show that the condition did pre-exist.

When you entered into the Army, a thorough pre-enlistment physical had taken place, because of this, there is a presumption of fitness that is granted (basically you are proven to be physically fit and have no failing conditions prior to entry on active duty).

Now that I have said what I feel is applicable to your situation, the real question is what do YOU want to do? Do you want to med board, or do you want to try to rehabilitate your injuries back to meeting retention standards?

Either of the two choices will mist likely be pretty difficult, obviously you have seen the pushback from the command when it comes to the MEB process, and it is not fun living with pain.

In my opinion you need to get your first line leader on board with you, let them know what your decision is. You will need to gather the necessary information (regulations, medical records if you want to PEB) or a treatment plan if you want to try to recover your fitness to standard.
 
I have sort of an update. Now that my company has found out that the Failure to Adapt won't stick, and neither will the weight chapter, they're trying to chapter me under AR 635-200, chapter 5-17. I spoke to my Ombudsman who said that "[my] day will come" in legal with all my paperwork (like you stated above, regs, medical records, etc.) to show that I have infact been recommended for a MEB, and have been on profile for over a year for the same issue. He said he was going to go see BN Sergeant Major, then go to BDE. (He already went to the Sergeant Major of JAG and he told the Ombudsman that this cannot legally happen if I have been recc'd for a MEB...but y'know...)

My goal is to be separated fairly. If the MEB decides that I am fit for duty, and do not need MEB, then fine. I'll gladly take the 5-17 and get out but I feel like this is all happening unfairly (I know, "life isn't fair!") because I did get hurt during Active Duty and have tried everything I can (besides surgery) to heal. My first line has done nothing but threaten me and not be supportive AT ALL. My PLT SGT basically told me that there is nothing she can do for me anymore, as far as being an umbrella for me. How disappointing.

I'm going to focus on composing my packet of paperwork, and hope that the Ombudsman gets something done. If anything, we will sit down prior to my visit to JAG to prepare for me to see them. I am anxious and just generally trying to "keep it together" over here.

Thank you for your input. It is seriously appreciated.
 
This is my advice. Each time you are spoken to regarding the chapter they are attempting, make whoever is speaking to you fill out a DA 4856 (developmental counseling form). If they are not willing to fill out a developmental counseling form, then you should sit down and type up a memorandum for the record stating the true facts of the conversation, email this document to yourself via Enterprise Email and also CC a civilian email address if you have it. This will put a time/date stamp to the memorandum that cannot be refuted.

Here is the guide to Army Correspondence (AR 25-50) http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r25_50.pdf and some templates http://www.armywriter.com/memorandum.htm

I have been in the Army for 22 years and not once have I ever received a negative counseling, the main reason for this is that I generally do the right thing, but also I ALWAYS cover my ass. It is not what you know, but rather what you can prove.

There is a regulation for any and everything in the ARMY, follow the regs, use the regs and cite the regs and you will be fine.

Read this article regarding conditions not a disability discharges: http://girightshotline.org/en/milit...physical-and-mental-conditions-discharge/army
 
sorry to interrupt. don't want to be rude but this is my first time posting on this site. I put up a new "thread" under Informal Physical Evaluation Board. Just wondering if I did it right. Is there a difference between a "thread" and a "forum"? Can ppl reply to what I wrote or did I do something wrong? (or do I just need to give it more time?)
 
STG2(SW)WARREN said:
sorry to interrupt. don't want to be rude but this is my first time posting on this site. I put up a new "thread" under Informal Physical Evaluation Board. Just wondering if I did it right. Is there a difference between a "thread" and a "forum"? Can ppl reply to what I wrote or did I do something wrong? (or do I just need to give it more time?)
Click to expand...
Yes, you did it right! I'm sure someone will comment soon :)
 
So now I have a Phase 1 physical scheduled for Friday morning. My company really doesn't know what it's getting itself into. Tomorrow I will be gathering all my medical paperwork for when I go to TDS. All of this is a load of BS, I swear.
 
Last week I had blood drawn to test for thyroid & cholesterol. My results came back with a low thyroid. Sooo. That explains a lot!

My Phase 1 was also cancelled due to post shutting down because of snow, so that never happened...

Spoke to the Ombudsman & he helped me organize all my paperwork for my trip to JAG tomorrow. Keep your fingers crossed!
 
Peas said:
Last week I had blood drawn to test for thyroid & cholesterol. My results came back with a low thyroid. Sooo. That explains a lot!

My Phase 1 was also cancelled due to post shutting down because of snow, so that never happened...

Spoke to the Ombudsman & he helped me organize all my paperwork for my trip to JAG tomorrow. Keep your fingers crossed!
Click to expand...

Indeed, fingers and toes are definitely crossed for sure! Good luck! :)

Thus, I quite often comment that "possessing well-informed knowledge is truly a powerful equalizer."

Best Wishes!
 
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