Possible MEB getting no where?!

MPkcco

MPkcco

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
So approx 7 months ago i came home from deployment was diagnosed Anxiety disorder, Depression , PTSD, Potential TBI. In the 7 months ive gotten to the point where nothing gives me joy and i just go through the motions my command is trying to force me out on a admin separation. Now for the last 3 months every-time i see the Therapist or the Counselor i get 2 different answers one tells me im getting recommended for a MEB and then next session i get told to choke down more pills or try new pills i just am to my witts end with dealing with it, my anxiety is sky rocketing due to uncertainty and trying to figure out whats going on. essentially i would rather get recommended for a MEB than face a 5-17 or a APFT failure. Everything is getting worse and i can tell im more irritable and everything okay straight to the point. I know Regulation states in AR 40-501 Chapter 3 Paragraph 33, B,C sub paragraphs that anyone diagnosed with Anxiety or other Mental disorders shall be recommended for the MEB upon Diagnosis if it interferes with military duty or limitations mine does both so my question is do i have a leg to stand on i sent the regulation to my therapist because she didnt believe that a regulation existed on Medical Retention standards in the Army on the basis of Mental Health idk i guess im kinda lost and not knowing what to do next.
 
MpKcoo,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Sounds like you are not being treated well and that the Army is ignoring the regulations that seem to apply to you.

See my below comments.

MPkcco said:
So approx 7 months ago i came home from deployment was diagnosed Anxiety disorder, Depression , PTSD, Potential TBI.
Click to expand...

Did you have a Pre and/or Post TBI assessment?
What is your grade/MOS/time in service?

MPkcco said:
In the 7 months ive gotten to the point where nothing gives me joy and i just go through the motions my command is trying to force me out on a admin separation.
Click to expand...

Have you been notified of intent to separate?
Do you have any support or "love" from your command? What about from your direct leaders (Squad leader, PSG, 1SG, PL, CDR, as appropriate)?
Any medals, awards, letters of commendation, good counselings or NCOERs as appropriate?

MPkcco said:
Now for the last 3 months every-time i see the Therapist or the Counselor i get 2 different answers one tells me im getting recommended for a MEB and then next session i get told to choke down more pills or try new pills i just am to my witts end with dealing with it, my anxiety is sky rocketing due to uncertainty and trying to figure out whats going on. essentially i would rather get recommended for a MEB than face a 5-17 or a APFT failure.
Click to expand...

Have you failed one or more APFTs? All events, any events, etc.? If so, have you been counseled, referred to remedial PT, given a chance to improve? Are any of your failures in any event caused by any disabilities?

AR 635-200 (Enlisted Admin Separations) Chapter 5-17, is for "Other designated physical or mental conditions"
Have you been "notified" of intent to separate? What specific condition are they proposing to separate you for?

MPkcco said:
Everything is getting worse and i can tell im more irritable and everything okay straight to the point.
Click to expand...
Any specific instances of impact on duty performance?

MPkcco said:
I know Regulation states in AR 40-501 Chapter 3 Paragraph 33, B,C sub paragraphs that anyone diagnosed with Anxiety or other Mental disorders shall be recommended for the MEB upon Diagnosis if it interferes with military duty or limitations mine does both so my question is do i have a leg to stand on i sent the regulation to my therapist because she didnt believe that a regulation existed on Medical Retention standards in the Army on the basis of Mental Health idk i guess im kinda lost and not knowing what to do next.
Click to expand...

Do you have a profile? If so, for what? Permanent or Temporary?

It is sad that your therapist did not know or was not familiar with the regulations. (I say "sad"....that is me holding back on the complete bullshit that this fact encompasses....familiarity with the regulations is not incumbent on the Soldier...the providers and officers appointed above you have a straight up obligation to know the rules.

Yes, you have a leg to stand on.

My baseline thought is to fight any admin separation, and request referral to the MEB/PEB (via memorandum...you can cite/ask your commander for a fit for duty evaluation if the military medical officers won't do their damn job and refer you:

AR 635-40:

"4–8. Referral by commanders
When a commander believes that a Soldier of their command is unable to perform the duties of their office, grade,
rank, or rating because of physical disability, the commander will refer the Soldier to the responsible MTF for
evaluation. The request for evaluation will be in writing and will state the commander’s reasons for believing that the
Soldier is unable to perform his or her duties. DD Form 689 (Individual Sick Slip) may be used for such referral (AR
40–66). Commanders of Reserve units not on active duty will be guided by AR 40–501 and chapter 8, of this
regulation.").

Make sure you go to your TDS/Legal Assistance Officer if you have been notified for separation.

A lot "smells wrong" about what you have described. You may have to fight to get your due, but, you have earned your due.

Ask any questions you have. Good luck!
 
Did you have a Pre and/or Post TBI assessment?
What is your grade/MOS/time in service?
  • I had a Pre TBI assesment, I am a SPC/MP(31B)/ 3 years TIS
Have you been notified of intent to separate?
Do you have any support or "love" from your command? What about from your direct leaders (Squad leader, PSG, 1SG, PL, CDR, as appropriate)?
Any medals, awards, letters of commendation, good counselings or NCOERs as appropriate?
  • I have been pretty much told that my DET 1sgt wants to get me out ASAP due to being on a profile and going back and forth to Behavioral Health. (Squad leader supports me that is about it).
  • I have 4 COA's, 1 AAM, 1 AFSM, GWOTSM, 1 JMUA and about 3 pending from deployment that havent been issued yet plus the standard basic training stuff.
Have you failed one or more APFTs? All events, any events, etc.? If so, have you been counseled, referred to remedial PT, given a chance to improve? Are any of your failures in any event caused by any disabilities?

AR 635-200 (Enlisted Admin Separations) Chapter 5-17, is for "Other designated physical or mental conditions"
Have you been "notified" of intent to separate? What specific condition are they proposing to separate you for?

  • I have not failed a APFT, have not been counseled however i am on a TEMP profile which recovery expires in December.
Any specific instances of impact on duty performance?
  • I had a instance on deployment where i completely had a freak out on a higher ranking on a cordon, and on day to day activities on shift ive had slight anxiety attacks and stuff to that nature. I get extremely irritable and agitated when it comes to shift and i rarely get a full nights sleep.
Do you have a profile? If so, for what? Permanent or Temporary?
  • Temp profile, Lower back pain from car wreck.
 
I am not a big fan of quoting regulations at the docs. My experience says docs don't care much for regulations. There are very few I have ever met who know the first thing about the MEB, its treated like a bad word, a taboo subject. I would be very cautious about using that word around a doc. I think we have all seen people labeled as seeking a MEB and it can get ugly fast. A MEB is started based on a P3 profile. Profile is a safer subject to broach.

Profiles are all about limitations. Talk to the doc about what you can and cannot do. Talk to the doc about how its messing up work. Talk to the doc about getting a profile to help you smooth over those issues. This can be difficult for MH problems, sometimes you can cut to the case and just say you need a profile to keep people off your back. If you can make it more concrete, like I need a profile so I have an explanation for needing to walk away before I lose my cool when things get agitated, or a profile to address sleep problems, it can work better. These are a good deal harder to write than ortho profiles, so sometimes you have to help them come up something that makes sense.

It sounds like you think you need a MEB for MH, not the ortho stuff, and its important to address this separately with a profile. Many times you have to struggle through some temp profiles for the condition before they upgrade to a permanent. It requires some discussion about hey, is this treatment gonna get me better? What's the light at the end of the tunnel? If they think they can fix you, temporary, if they think they've done all that is realistic, then they upgrade it to permanent.

While nobody is treated well on profile, they're a limited on how they can kick you out early because of it. 1SGs tend to bluster a bit, they want to motivate people to avoid profiles, but some of his threats are a bit hollow. Me, I would probably worry about trying to show him you're attempting to get better and show him some route to you getting better to help calm him down. Even if that route isn't realistic, pretend that it is. It won't bring you into good graces, but it can help move you from shit bird to broke dick. Broke dicks are usually begrudgingly tolerated instead of targeted for abuse. Honestly, this isn't really on you, its the 1SG overreacting IMO, but assigning blame doesn't make your situation much better.
 
I agree im not one to push regulation or bring it up i was just stating i knew what the retention standards are for the condition for which im diagnosed. when i brought up a profile for just that the ABH Major acted like she had never heard of a behavioral health profile before so i was just as confused as she was.
 
MPkcco said:
I agree im not one to push regulation or bring it up i was just stating i knew what the retention standards are for the condition for which im diagnosed. when i brought up a profile for just that the ABH Major acted like she had never heard of a behavioral health profile before so i was just as confused as she was.
Click to expand...

You might be surprised at how little training or information is provided to folks that have direct and significant impact on your case.

((Here is my experience:

In my initial commissioning training through OCS I had zero training or blocks of classes on the subject of disability issues for Soldiers ;
At my basic course (Trans Corps OBC) I had zero training or blocks of instruction on this subbject;
At my Active Duty Company Commander's Course, the block of instruction was literally stated in one Power Point slide that stated, "For issues with Soldier's Facing Disability Processing, seek advice from your assigned Judge Advocate;"
At my Judge Advocate Officer Basic Course, the training on this subject was one Power Point slide that referenced AR 635-40.
Upon Assignment as the Senior Soldier's Counsel at the TX Army PEB, my training was to read the regulations (AR 635-40, DoDI 1332.38, DoDI 1332.39, and the relevant VA regulations and to do "on the job training."

Upon the "Walter Reed scandal," I was asked to brief the MEDCOM Staff Judge Advocate and the Garrison SJA on the issues. I did this.....none of these senior lawyers understood a thing about the process or issues. How do i know this? Because I was asked to repeat this brief three times (the final time was for a "sensitive" case regarding a JAG who was going through the DES process....three times I briefed the senior MEDCOM lawyers and each time they had no idea or understanding of the process)).

Later, I was called on to teach a class to a mixed Army and Air Force Medical Treatment Facility Commander's (a group of O5s and O6s) who had no experience with the issues.

Since that time (2005-2006), though the statutes and regulations require training on these subjects for all participants in the Disability Evaluation System process, I have seen little to none compliance with the training requirements.

Bottom line, the issues can be complicated (but, with a basic understanding of the laws and regulations, it is not that hard to comply with the training requirements). Most leaders likely do not get or have the required training. Unfortunately, this results in bad outcomes for members.

It is not unusual for Military Medical providers to be wholly ignorant of the issues in the Disability Evaluation System.
 
Providers are often ignorant of many regulations that have to do with profiles and the MEB process. I was constantly having to educate them.

The problem with educating medics about the process is that you may be labeled as a malingering which will make the whole process very convoluted. If your commander (or any other person in a position of authority) is in your corner, let you your commander do the educating.
 
In the medical world, a MAJ is a PVT, a CPT is a resident, or still in basic. Would the MAJ really not write a profile for no gun ranges if someone a real intent for suicide or homicide? Sadly, it may be true in this case, but its a ridiculous answer. How to educate such a profound lack of understanding is difficult. If you can get the commander to help, like the chaplain says, that'd be great. Commander may not work though, they hate profiles. Nothing worse than a doc trying to run his company. PA will know more about profiles, but next to nothing about mental health, but probably where I would start. PA may just write it based on what you tell him or may look at the MH notes and come up with a good answer on his own, or may just call the MAJ and hash it out between them.
 
Update as of Today, was placed on 200 MG Zoloft after a ER visit and numerous Anxiety attacks in a 3 day span as-well as more anti-anxiety medication. was issued a 3 month Profile restricting my ability to consume alcohol, or possess/use firearms, knives, sharp objects, munitions, explosives or conduct range operations. as a Military Policeman this worries me as it opens another avenue for my command to attempt to chapter me out before i get a MEB the new PCM/Care provider is a CPT and says that she doesnt like to recomend MEBs for people in Behavioral Health till after at least a couple years of treatment... even though regulations state otherwise. SMH. im at a loss for words honestly.
 
The profile is standard protocol for the medication. No alcohol becuase it has contradictins, no weapons because you are not supposed to operate and hazardous machinery, as well as there is an increased risk for sucidal ideation.

Here are the side effects of the medication: http://www.drugs.com/sfx/zoloft-side-effects.html

Intial dosage (panic attacks) is typically 25mg orally once a day, increased to 50mg after one week, adjustments weekly as necessary.

Check to see if there is an Army Center for Enhanced Performnace (ACEP) http://acep.army.mil/resources.html on your installation, they have some amazing non-medication interventions to panic disorder, your Chaplain is a great source as well. Consult with your Dr to see if you can add these interventions as part of your course of treatment.

Do NOT stop taking the medication as precribed without Dr approval.
 
UPDATE: i was recommended for my MEB and started the process this week i have my Demo brief tomorrow. i guess i have a few questions. are commands still able to perform APFT's , HT/WT and stuff like that while going through the MEB/PEB process im just curious as im being MEB for my Anxiety/PTSD.
 
MPkcco said:
UPDATE: i was recommended for my MEB and started the process this week i have my Demo brief tomorrow. i guess i have a few questions. are commands still able to perform APFT's , HT/WT and stuff like that while going through the MEB/PEB process im just curious as im being MEB for my Anxiety/PTSD.
Click to expand...
From my experiences while in the DoD IDES MEB/PEB process, military commanders can indeed perform APFTs and HT/WT screening requirements for IDES-referred & accepted military service members as long as it's within the legal limitations/restrictions of the Army service member's regulatory physical profile(s).

Thus, I quite often comment that "possessing well-informed knowledge is truly a powerful equalizer!"

Best Wishes!
 
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Yes to a point.

Your command has to follow your Medically recommended limitations. Mental health will mostly only limit you at weapons and duty. the more that your PCM puts on your limitations sheet the less the command can make you do. also you have to know your own limitations because you don't want to travel the malingering route. HT/WT you have to do. regardless of how much you are over or under they cant discharge you. being overweight is not a crime and does not call for MP to arrest you. other then that ask questions at the MEB/PEB brief you are going to they will tell you the most and take notes so you know what is going on the entire process.
 
Thanks everyone I was just curious and was looking for some quick info.
 
They changed my Diagnosis to straight Anxiety NOS and i got my ratings back for everything 50 DOD, 80 VA TDRL
 
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