Question Concerning DA 7652

M

Miles_Milites

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
Hello all! I apologize if this is not the correct place to post this. I have a question concerning the DA 7652, but I want to give some background first. I am currently an E-7 in the Army National Guard (21 years), M-DAY, and an 11B (Infantryman). Currently I am a Cadre at a state OCS. Last year I finally bit the bullet and filed for VA - I received 100% P&T. I did not tell the Guard about this initially. However, a few months after my rating I had a fun little Pulmonary Embolism which, long story short, has led to my Hematologist placing me on life-long blood thinners. A month later, while at SRP, I told the Guard about my PE and my VA stuff. They assigned me a case manager and I am now having to fill out paperwork for a CH 3 which will likely head towards a fit for duty and all that entails.

Here are my questions:

1. I've seen varying amounts of info about the DA 7652. Some say it is imperative to list each and every thing wrong with you. Others say it doesn't really matter and that the Army realizes Commanders may be biased, or new to a unit, and do not put a lot of stock in the DA 7652. Given that the Guard does not really know about my VA conditions (but will likely care when/if they find out about a couple of them), and my Commander certainly does not know about them, should I just proceed with letting the CO fill it out as he sees fit?

2. My Commander is rather new, and really doesn't know much about my issues other than my PE. He seems to want to fill out the DA 7652 himself with little input from me. He is only intending to list the blood thinners and their impact on my ability to serve/deploy given my MOS, etc. Will this bite me later?

3. Regardless of the DA 7652, and what it may list, will I have an opportunity later in the process to let the Guard/Army know about all my other potentially disqualifying issues? Since all anyone seems to care about right now is the Blood Thinners, and nothing else, will I be able to make clear the other stuff at a later point in time for the future Board's consideration in the percentage assignment process?

Sorry if this is not succinct or clear. I'm happy to answer any and all questions. I was intending to give the Army a bit more time, but the truth is I'm tired and spent and I don't want to stick around to become that worthless E-7 we have all met. So now I am coming to terms with being medically discharged and wanting it to go as smoothly, and beneficially, as possible. Thank you!
 
I don't know all the answers to your questions, but my Attorney told me that the Commander's statement holds no weight. When I went to sign my NARSUM, she said, "Do you care to see what your Commander's opinion is of you? He's not a medical professional, and he is certainly not your medical professional." I said, "Fuck him." We kept it moving. So, yeah I don't believe a Commander's statement is even looked at. If you have hundreds of pages worth of medical documents and the Commander writes, "He seems fine to me." I doubt anyone will take that seriously.
 
Miles_Milites said:
Hello all! I apologize if this is not the correct place to post this. I have a question concerning the DA 7652, but I want to give some background first. I am currently an E-7 in the Army National Guard (21 years), M-DAY, and an 11B (Infantryman). Currently I am a Cadre at a state OCS. Last year I finally bit the bullet and filed for VA - I received 100% P&T. I did not tell the Guard about this initially. However, a few months after my rating I had a fun little Pulmonary Embolism which, long story short, has led to my Hematologist placing me on life-long blood thinners. A month later, while at SRP, I told the Guard about my PE and my VA stuff. They assigned me a case manager and I am now having to fill out paperwork for a CH 3 which will likely head towards a fit for duty and all that entails.

Here are my questions:

1. I've seen varying amounts of info about the DA 7652. Some say it is imperative to list each and every thing wrong with you. Others say it doesn't really matter and that the Army realizes Commanders may be biased, or new to a unit, and do not put a lot of stock in the DA 7652. Given that the Guard does not really know about my VA conditions (but will likely care when/if they find out about a couple of them), and my Commander certainly does not know about them, should I just proceed with letting the CO fill it out as he sees fit?

2. My Commander is rather new, and really doesn't know much about my issues other than my PE. He seems to want to fill out the DA 7652 himself with little input from me. He is only intending to list the blood thinners and their impact on my ability to serve/deploy given my MOS, etc. Will this bite me later?

3. Regardless of the DA 7652, and what it may list, will I have an opportunity later in the process to let the Guard/Army know about all my other potentially disqualifying issues? Since all anyone seems to care about right now is the Blood Thinners, and nothing else, will I be able to make clear the other stuff at a later point in time for the future Board's consideration in the percentage assignment process?

Sorry if this is not succinct or clear. I'm happy to answer any and all questions. I was intending to give the Army a bit more time, but the truth is I'm tired and spent and I don't want to stick around to become that worthless E-7 we have all met. So now I am coming to terms with being medically discharged and wanting it to go as smoothly, and beneficially, as possible. Thank you!
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Just my opinion... CMD statement can be very beneficial for lower enlisted or new officers who have little or no other records. Members like yourself who have a full known history, in this case with the VA, will be fine regardless of the CMD statement.

My CMD statement had nothing on it. He did not know me and we were the same rank. It was just a very generic statement. I still received 100% PDRL as all my conditions and supporting paperwork were clear. I put quite a bit of time in preparing my own case and got legal help. Do push to have all potential "unfit" conditions added to your other paperwork before it goes to the PEBLO/IDES if you can. Find your Guard MSC, not the VA MSC. This soldier will be processing your paperwork before it's submitted. One of those unique elements in the Army Guard compared to the other branches

Like you, I held on as long as I could. It's time to focus on you. You earned your benefits. Time to secure them.
 
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Thank you both for your responses. That does take a bit of stress off and makes perfect sense. I suppose that I will relax about the DA form and rest assured I will get my time to produce my other issues at a later date. And DaveK, that is good to hear. Right now I am in the 'Let's get him his Ch3 started' phase. I still have to go through my case manager at the moment. She says once the CH3 is done I will move to a fit for duty and I will be assigned a new POC/Handler. Does this track to you? Thanks again!
 
We are in a hard spot with the guard when it comes to commanders statements as we don't see them as much as our active duty counterparts. I had to write mine out and sit down and have a meeting with my commander to discuss these issues since he had only been on the job a few months. I know from my experience once you are recommended for the P3 profile by your case manager it will have to get stamped off on by your states surgeon and then it should show on your profile that you are recommended for an MEB. Once that happens someone will reach out for more info and then push it to the appropriate MEB site. Depending on which part of the country you are in will determine who gets your packet. Mine being on the eastern seaboard was pushed to Ft. Eisenhower. Once done a PEBLO will reach out with all the needed info to do an intake briefing. Depending on how you feel about continuing service or not is up to you and how you ride out the process. I have had soldiers under me appeal and continue to serve. Others were good with the process as their totality of issues and current VA ratings it didn't make sense to stay since they weren't getting paid to drill just retirement points. The one good thing you have going for you right now is that you have over 20 years of service and will have locked in your grey area retirement regardless of how this plays out. Good luck with everything and just know that it will be a long process.
 
Sorry it has taken a bit to respond Almostthere86. Thank you as well for the information. In my case, due to the blood thinners, the state surgeon was the one who told my case manager to send me all the paperwork for the P3. I guess I was paranoid that, if my Commander's statement did not list each and every one of my issues/conditions then I would be screwed. Seeing the above advice, I realize that I might have been a bit too worried over nothing. I think once I get to the PEBLO stage I will have that opportunity. I'm from GA, so my guess is that I too will be routed through Eisenhower. And yes, being past 20 is definitely a stress-relief. I know it sounds terrible and like I'm being a freeloader, but what I truly am hopeful for is that tricare. As you know, the cost difference between that and 'grey area' tricare is insane.
 
Miles_Milites said:
Sorry it has taken a bit to respond Almostthere86. Thank you as well for the information. In my case, due to the blood thinners, the state surgeon was the one who told my case manager to send me all the paperwork for the P3. I guess I was paranoid that, if my Commander's statement did not list each and every one of my issues/conditions then I would be screwed. Seeing the above advice, I realize that I might have been a bit too worried over nothing. I think once I get to the PEBLO stage I will have that opportunity. I'm from GA, so my guess is that I too will be routed through Eisenhower. And yes, being past 20 is definitely a stress-relief. I know it sounds terrible and like I'm being a freeloader, but what I truly am hopeful for is that tricare. As you know, the cost difference between that and 'grey area' tricare is insane.
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FYI there is a opportunity between the cmd statement and the initial meeting with the PEBLO to ensure all items are listed. I would not wait. These items should be the ones you believe will be rated by the DoD side verses the VA side. The VA side is easy to add at the PEBLO meeting and during exams. But before that ensure all DoD items you want to claim are listed. Check with your Guard MSC. That soldier will be able to see your entire packet prior to the PEBLO. A P3 profile for each item will help get each condition added for IDES.
While you do not need to worry, you should stay on top of each part of the process you are in. Make sure all you paperwork is correct and in order before it moves on to the next step.
 
Davek, what point would that be? Once the P3 is issued? And, for the most part, all of my DOD issues are what I got the VA for, by providing them my entire military medical record (Including PHAs surprisingly). But some of my stuff is old. Not to list too much detail, but for example one is from a vbied blast from 2006 resulting in concussion/TBI. VA rated it of course and lumped it with mental health.

So, since the already VA rated issues are the only ones I want on my medboard, are you saying I still need to get P3s for all of those as well?
 
Miles_Milites said:
Davek, what point would that be? Once the P3 is issued? And, for the most part, all of my DOD issues are what I got the VA for, by providing them my entire military medical record (Including PHAs surprisingly). But some of my stuff is old. Not to list too much detail, but for example one is from a vbied blast from 2006 resulting in concussion/TBI. VA rated it of course and lumped it with mental health.

So, since the already VA rated issues are the only ones I want on my medboard, are you saying I still need to get P3s for all of those as well?
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You do not need P3s. But it helps ensure those items you want listed for DoD purposes get listed...

Have you seen the list/know all the items the Guard/DoD is requesting IDES to evaluate specifically as disqualifying? Submitting your VA medical records and other supporting medical records does not mean the individual items will be listed as potentially disqualifying for DOD purposes. You have to confirm it.

As an example in my case several items were missing even though the VA had previously rated them years earlier. I met with guard medical and had them listed. They rated them as P3s. That then placed them on the list of DoD potentially disqualifying issues that needed to be evaluated by IDES confirmed by my Guard MSC.

Upon meeting with my PEBLO he stated that at that point no more DoD items could be added by my request. That all DoD items must be added early by the Guard itself or contested later by me/legal. He did take down a list from me of all items that I wanted the VA to evaluate.

Others experiences may be different but that was mine. I just want to ensure that no one else misses an opportunity by waiting instead of taking control of their case.
 
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Hmmm. That is troubling, as my S1 is very un-helpful. I'm currently at the point where, after proving that I would be on blood thinners for life, the state surgeon (via my case manager) stated that I need to start the P3 process as I will likely need a fit for duty eval and, eventually, medboard. I have yet to turn in the 4 pieces of paperwork (Ch3 Eval Memo, DA 7652, DD 2870, and Physical Profile Worksheet). The profile worksheet does ask about VA, my percentage, and all my injuries/issues.

So, I'm at the very beginning of the process for sure. I was told that, once I get the P3 process started, the state surgeon will reach out to me and the Case Manager will no longer be in the loop. Would that be a good time to mention all this to her and tell her all my issues (even though she will have seen the worksheet by then)?
 
Miles_Milites said:
Hmmm. That is troubling, as my S1 is very un-helpful. I'm currently at the point where, after proving that I would be on blood thinners for life, the state surgeon (via my case manager) stated that I need to start the P3 process as I will likely need a fit for duty eval and, eventually, medboard. I have yet to turn in the 4 pieces of paperwork (Ch3 Eval Memo, DA 7652, DD 2870, and Physical Profile Worksheet). The profile worksheet does ask about VA, my percentage, and all my injuries/issues.

So, I'm at the very beginning of the process for sure. I was told that, once I get the P3 process started, the state surgeon will reach out to me and the Case Manager will no longer be in the loop. Would that be a good time to mention all this to her and tell her all my issues (even though she will have seen the worksheet by then)?
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Good news is that means you are still early as you stated. My suggestion would be to build a small packet for each condition that could rate a P3. Select out the most pertinent parts showing diagnosis, treatment time-frames, and nexus to service. Make a cover sheet for each of those conditions with a short personal statement showing how that condition impacts you, your career and how it started by or was worsened in service. The goal is to spell it out as clearly as possible for any person reviewing the file. Make it so they do not have to search for anything. Then submit these packets to medical for review as potential profile ratings hopeful for P3s. It looks like you have at least partly got this going.

Additionally, consider asking for any LODs based on the P3s. While not necessary to enter IDES, an LOD can be a great help for the PEB review. Most LODs have filing time-frames. Some do not such as mental health. An LOD investigation will give you more time to get the rest of your paperwork in order and potentially listed as a profile. I secured one LOD 10+ years later and got another updated/included that was missing.

If it was not clear...Just because you have a condition even with diagnosis and VA rating, it does not mean the Guard will submit it to IDES as a potentially disqualifying DoD ailment. You need to make sure each one is listed and submitted by your medical/S1. Ensure that you have the best chance of getting over the 30% DoD mark for retirement vs separation.

And yes I would mention all this to your case manager and state surgeon. It helps to make their job easy by having all your paperwork squared away.

Don't worry, you are on the right path. Just keep on top of things and try to get your case to be as clear as possible before it officially enters IDES.
 
Sorry again for the reply delay. That all sounds very reasonable, thank you. I do not have much paperwork on certain issues (Mental health) and only a small record of treatment for the TBI after the blast back in 2006. All I really have for those are the actual diagnoses, but no real treatment records. It wasn't until the PE last year that I finally broke down and got a primary, etc. So, aside from some of the initial documentation of incidents, some xrays here and there, and the VA rating for mental health, I don't have much in the way of treatment. However, what you say makes perfect sense. I did not know that there was no time limit on Mental health for LOD. I will do as you say, and collect every bit of paperwork I submitted to VA for rating as it is pretty much all the evidence that I currently have, at least as far as diagnoses. I will definitely discuss this with the State Surgeon, whenever it is that she actually personally reaches out to me. So, would you recommend me also using the VA decision letter as any kind of 'proof' for my conditions as it lists quite a bit about each one?
 
Miles_Milites said:
Sorry again for the reply delay. That all sounds very reasonable, thank you. I do not have much paperwork on certain issues (Mental health) and only a small record of treatment for the TBI after the blast back in 2006. All I really have for those are the actual diagnoses, but no real treatment records. It wasn't until the PE last year that I finally broke down and got a primary, etc. So, aside from some of the initial documentation of incidents, some xrays here and there, and the VA rating for mental health, I don't have much in the way of treatment. However, what you say makes perfect sense. I did not know that there was no time limit on Mental health for LOD. I will do as you say, and collect every bit of paperwork I submitted to VA for rating as it is pretty much all the evidence that I currently have, at least as far as diagnoses. I will definitely discuss this with the State Surgeon, whenever it is that she actually personally reaches out to me. So, would you recommend me also using the VA decision letter as any kind of 'proof' for my conditions as it lists quite a bit about each one?
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The good news is you already have the hardest part completed...you have the TBI and mental health diagnoses. Now you just have to show how much it impacts your life/career from an IDES DoD perspective.

The VA decision letter is helpful in the short term. But I would look for more clinical side paperwork along with the original VA disability questionnaire DBQs used to rate your diagnosis. You can request your DBQ. If you struggle directly getting this or any form consider getting a VSO like the DAV to help you. It is free and they can see inside the VA portal further than we can be simply logging in. You can also complete a free of information request for you complete VA file. Note that this can take 6 months to 1 year average. So do that right away if you plan to.

FYI a VSO will not represent you in you IDES case, but they can help you monitor what's happening. You need a lawyer for representation.

Also, if you really do need the help, consider getting treatment now. The VA, Vet Center and/or privately. You health and future are first, but it can also help you case. Later onset is very normal which is why mental health LODs have no time limit.

Good luck. Keep pushing.
 
Good to hear. So, I *Should* be able to get my DBQs from a VSO or the DAV? And the FOIA thing, that is for the complete "C-File" correct? So I can possibly get copies of the DBQs themselves from VSO or DAV without necessarily needing my complete file right?

Oh, and a buddy of mine was telling me to request my 'Code sheet'... would that also be through VSO/DAV?

Sorry for all of the questions, and I know I sound ignorant. I did not see all of this coming so I clearly need to commit to some serious research going forward. I very much appreciate the help.

*Edit- As for the getting help part.... As I said, I'm terrible about getting care. To be honest, I'm kind of afraid to open that can of worms. I'm sure you know, but just sitting through that interview was pretty gut-wrenching and uncomfortable, and we didn't even get into any weeds heh. I know that the time is coming where I need to, especially with my new health issues. Just getting treated for the PE has already kind of pushed me into considering all those other things I I've been neglecting. But you know how it is, old habits are hard to break, and same with old mentalities (death before sick-call, etc). But I can't lie, I know that you are right.
 
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Miles_Milites said:
Good to hear. So, I *Should* be able to get my DBQs from a VSO or the DAV? And the FOIA thing, that is for the complete "C-File" correct? So I can possibly get copies of the DBQs themselves from VSO or DAV without necessarily needing my complete file right?

Oh, and a buddy of mine was telling me to request my 'Code sheet'... would that also be through VSO/DAV?

Sorry for all of the questions, and I know I sound ignorant. I did not see all of this coming so I clearly need to commit to some serious research going forward. I very much appreciate the help.

*Edit- As for the getting help part.... As I said, I'm terrible about getting care. To be honest, I'm kind of afraid to open that can of worms. I'm sure you know, but just sitting through that interview was pretty gut-wrenching and uncomfortable, and we didn't even get into any weeds heh. I know that the time is coming where I need to, especially with my new health issues. Just getting treated for the PE has already kind of pushed me into considering all those other things I I've been neglecting. But you know how it is, old habits are hard to break, and same with old mentalities (death before sick-call, etc). But I can't lie, I know that you are right.
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It's possible but not always visible to the DAV or any other VSO. Basically, the only way to know is to go ask. And yes, you can ask for the complete C-file via FOIA.

You can also walk into the VA itself and ask for the documents. There's typically a records window at most of the major facilities. If you give them a big range of times and documents they will not be able to fulfill the request. However, if you can narrow the request down to a very specific timeframe and document type such as DBQs, they might be able to help.

If it helps, should you seek out treatment, it's not rehashing old war stories and dredging up old wounds unless you want it to be. It's about what's impacting you today. Providing some insight and maybe a new way to look at things moving forward. It's for future you...
 
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