I am currently a reservist on active duty orders the last 4 years (with 10 previous years active duty and 2 traditional reserves). 6 months ago I was diagnosed with illness and was told I now had to go through LOD,MEB process. They switched me to medical orders while I awaited the outcome. The Line of Duty determination showed it occurred during active duty status. I am still waiting for MEB, etc but they are taking me off orders!--I did not think this was possible. As I read AFI36-3212 para 8, it states clearly a reservist cannot be taken off orders until "final disposition"--which has not occurred. I've quoted this reg and they are going through with it, though my local medical reserve tech who handles the orders paperwork says I am being shafted!--But he says his hands are tied. WHAT CAN I DO!!??
SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!
- Thread starter LoufromFWB
- Start date
This happens all the time and it should not. Do not go off orders-do everything in your power to stay on orders-if you go off orders you will have medical treatment issues and have to fight ten times harder for everything. Don't sign anything.Maybe Jason can tell you who can help.
Thank you for your response. My anxiety levels have increased a thousand-fold since I first got notice this morning. And orders to end on Monday!--Both my commander and Medical Air Reserve Tech ar helping me fight this since they agree it should not be. As I said I have read the regulation with respect to this process. It has an entire chapter devoted to Reserve members and their disposition. I do not want to get off orders and will not sign anything but how can I avoid it if they tell me my orders are finished?--I was told it's some new medical office that made this decision. I know it is wrong in every way possible---just wish I could talk to someone in charge.
Same thing happened to me and I was removed from orders. They sent me a waiver to sign saying if I signed it, I could perform IDTs only. The content of the waiver said it only applies to those with little or no impairment and it is only so a reservist can get a "Good" retirement year with 50 points. Do not sign that waiver! This gives them the authority to remove you from orders.
I already had 100 points, and I had a serious disability--not impairment and refused to sign the waiver. They then said I could apply for incapacitation pay "IF I COULD SHOW A LOSS OF CIVILIAN INCOME." I had no civilian income since I had been on active duty orders. Also, they can't remove you from orders (according to AFI's) and then tell you to apply for INCAP pay, but they do. You're right, they're supposed to keep you on orders until your condition is materially improved or you're processed through the DES.
I was placed back on orders In Feb 09 to cover the period from Oct 08 and have been on ever since.
If they remove you illegally, like they did me, you should contact the AF Reserve IG Office. They are very familiar with my case and should be able to get you on the right path.
Name:
Maj David Spencer
Inquiries and Investigations Officer
HQ AFRC/IGQI
DSN 497-1514 Comm 478-327-1514
FAX 497-0512 Comm 478-327-0512
Email: SPENCER, DAVID A Maj USAF AFRC AFRC/IGQI [[email protected]]
I already had 100 points, and I had a serious disability--not impairment and refused to sign the waiver. They then said I could apply for incapacitation pay "IF I COULD SHOW A LOSS OF CIVILIAN INCOME." I had no civilian income since I had been on active duty orders. Also, they can't remove you from orders (according to AFI's) and then tell you to apply for INCAP pay, but they do. You're right, they're supposed to keep you on orders until your condition is materially improved or you're processed through the DES.
I was placed back on orders In Feb 09 to cover the period from Oct 08 and have been on ever since.
If they remove you illegally, like they did me, you should contact the AF Reserve IG Office. They are very familiar with my case and should be able to get you on the right path.
Name:
Maj David Spencer
Inquiries and Investigations Officer
HQ AFRC/IGQI
DSN 497-1514 Comm 478-327-1514
FAX 497-0512 Comm 478-327-0512
Email: SPENCER, DAVID A Maj USAF AFRC AFRC/IGQI [[email protected]]
Thank you so much Sir for your tremendous assistance. As I read your answer I see we have numerous things in common (employment situation, etc). This is exactly what I was tentatively told would happen: waiver for IDTs only.---I will not sign and will go to the IG on Monday. Again, thank you.
Am I correct in assuming the info you gave was IG contact info?
We need to talk. Jason and I now have a case before the Federal Court for the very same thing. I've written several detailed replies to you but I keep getting logged off so I will do it in pieces.
-SMSgt
-SMSgt
check your profile visitor messages Senior.
First things first. Do not panic and do not accept reserve incapacitation pay or sign anything under any curcumstances. The adminstrative record is all there and they can't change it.
What has happend to you happens all the time. Everything is in your hands now. You are the only one that will determine you fate. Do not expect anyone in your chain to do anything for you no matter how sympathetic thay are. The "useful idiots" that chopped your orders expect you to go away without a fight. They win because too many people accept it and roll over an die. However, providing your case meets all the requirements, you are the one who actually has them by the short hairs. The ONLY one who can now lose your case is you. Be prepared for a very long battle. The key to dealing with useful idiots is understanding the Law. You are going to have to understand it inside out. But remember this, no matter how much they try, they can't delete it, modify it, change it or ignore it. It is what it is.
I have had my orders chopped 11 times over the last two years. This last time I now have a cause of action to seek relief in the Federal Court system. I am currently seeking all ANG or ARC members who have been on active duty for more than 31 days and have been illegally been removed from active duty. I am also interested in hearing from other service members from other services who have had this happen. Please feel free to contact me.
-SMSgt
What has happend to you happens all the time. Everything is in your hands now. You are the only one that will determine you fate. Do not expect anyone in your chain to do anything for you no matter how sympathetic thay are. The "useful idiots" that chopped your orders expect you to go away without a fight. They win because too many people accept it and roll over an die. However, providing your case meets all the requirements, you are the one who actually has them by the short hairs. The ONLY one who can now lose your case is you. Be prepared for a very long battle. The key to dealing with useful idiots is understanding the Law. You are going to have to understand it inside out. But remember this, no matter how much they try, they can't delete it, modify it, change it or ignore it. It is what it is.
I have had my orders chopped 11 times over the last two years. This last time I now have a cause of action to seek relief in the Federal Court system. I am currently seeking all ANG or ARC members who have been on active duty for more than 31 days and have been illegally been removed from active duty. I am also interested in hearing from other service members from other services who have had this happen. Please feel free to contact me.
-SMSgt
The first thing in my opinion you need to do is let it be known to everybody that you are aware of the law and get it down for the record immediately that you are invoking your right to remain on active duty. You need to let everyone in your chain of command starting with your wing commander (and include the medical people), know that you are requesting to remain on active duty. Believe me, they and the Air Force live and die around emails. This will establish that you have taken the first step in preserving your rights and remove the excuse they didn't know about your situation. You also need to do return receipt. That will dive them bug nuts.
-SMSgt
-SMSgt
Here is a format I put together with Jasons help. I recommend you put it in a word file that you can print up and then include it in a short email. Try to use your units letter head if you can.
MEMORANDUM FOR BGEN XXXXXXXXX, COMMANDER XXXX AIRWING
FROM: CMSGT PISSED OFF
SUBJECT: MEDICAL CONTINUATION ORDERS
I am requesting that medical continuation orders be issued as of XX February 2010 and continued to the final determination of my case as prescribed by Law and Regulation.
Pursuant to 37 U.S.C. § 204(a)-(b);
(a) The following persons are entitled to the basic pay of the pay grade to which assigned or distributed, in accordance with their years of service computed under section 205 of this title—
(1) a member of a uniformed service who is on active duty; and
(2) a member of a uniformed service, or a member of the National Guard who is not a Reserve of the Army or the Air Force, who is participating in full-time training, training duty with pay, or other full-time duty, provided by law, including participation in exercises or the performance of duty under section 10302, 10305, 10502, or 12402 of title 10, or section503, 504, 505, or 506 of title 32.
(b) For the purposes of subsection (a), under regulations prescribed by the President, the time necessary for a member of a uniformed service who is called or ordered to active duty for a period of more than 30 days to travel from his home to his first duty station and from his last duty station to his home, by the mode of transportation authorized in his call or orders, is considered active duty.
DoDI 1241.2;
6.6.3.2. A Reserve component member on active duty under a call or order to active duty specifying a period of 31 days or more, who incurs or aggravates an injury, illness, or disease in the line of duty shall, with the member's consent, be continued on active duty upon the expiration of call or order to active duty until the member is determined fit for duty or the member is separated or retired as a result of a Disability Evaluation System determination.
AFI36-3212;
8.6.2. ARC members who incur or aggravate an injury, illness or disease in the line of duty while onorders for more than 30 days are not involuntarily released from those orders until final disposition oftheir disability case. These members' entitlement to full pay and allowances and benefits continue tothe same extent provided by law or regulation to regular component members.
Once again, I request that I be placed on orders active duty orders pending final disposition of my status through medical channels.
Respectfully, CMSGT PISSED OFF.
Of course this is just a guide line. I eliminated some leading particulars concerning my particular case but this is all you need to write. Remember, LESS IS BETTER at this point. You do not want to give them anything what so ever to distract from the message that they are required to provide you with medical continuation orders.
MEMORANDUM FOR BGEN XXXXXXXXX, COMMANDER XXXX AIRWING
FROM: CMSGT PISSED OFF
SUBJECT: MEDICAL CONTINUATION ORDERS
I am requesting that medical continuation orders be issued as of XX February 2010 and continued to the final determination of my case as prescribed by Law and Regulation.
Pursuant to 37 U.S.C. § 204(a)-(b);
(a) The following persons are entitled to the basic pay of the pay grade to which assigned or distributed, in accordance with their years of service computed under section 205 of this title—
(1) a member of a uniformed service who is on active duty; and
(2) a member of a uniformed service, or a member of the National Guard who is not a Reserve of the Army or the Air Force, who is participating in full-time training, training duty with pay, or other full-time duty, provided by law, including participation in exercises or the performance of duty under section 10302, 10305, 10502, or 12402 of title 10, or section503, 504, 505, or 506 of title 32.
(b) For the purposes of subsection (a), under regulations prescribed by the President, the time necessary for a member of a uniformed service who is called or ordered to active duty for a period of more than 30 days to travel from his home to his first duty station and from his last duty station to his home, by the mode of transportation authorized in his call or orders, is considered active duty.
DoDI 1241.2;
6.6.3.2. A Reserve component member on active duty under a call or order to active duty specifying a period of 31 days or more, who incurs or aggravates an injury, illness, or disease in the line of duty shall, with the member's consent, be continued on active duty upon the expiration of call or order to active duty until the member is determined fit for duty or the member is separated or retired as a result of a Disability Evaluation System determination.
AFI36-3212;
8.6.2. ARC members who incur or aggravate an injury, illness or disease in the line of duty while onorders for more than 30 days are not involuntarily released from those orders until final disposition oftheir disability case. These members' entitlement to full pay and allowances and benefits continue tothe same extent provided by law or regulation to regular component members.
Once again, I request that I be placed on orders active duty orders pending final disposition of my status through medical channels.
Respectfully, CMSGT PISSED OFF.
Of course this is just a guide line. I eliminated some leading particulars concerning my particular case but this is all you need to write. Remember, LESS IS BETTER at this point. You do not want to give them anything what so ever to distract from the message that they are required to provide you with medical continuation orders.
As you have suggested I have sent out letter to appropriate medical staff and commanders. I am also in contact with IG's office(Maj Spencer) who is looking into the case. Also, I am in contact with Senior in case I need to go another route. I have been told the paperwork to do the MEB has been sent to Base medical, but in the meantime I have no employment after today. It is my belief that 'they' looked at virtual medical record and decided I am 'stable'---this is probably their reasoning (though I am just guessing)--I cannot see how they would make that assumption--if this is case--since I know I have gotten worse since diagnosis.---Anyway, now I wait for next step.--THIS IS JUST SO WRONG!
Lou, did you get my email?
I received your number---replied with email to that address.
As you know for know we will continue this discussion off line for the time being...
-SMSgt
-SMSgt
I JUST CAME ACROSS THIS COMMUNICATING WITH ANOTHER ARC MEMBER WHO HAS BEEN ON AD FOR OVER 31 DAYS. IF AFRC IS USING THIS "PATICIPATION WAIVER" TO REMOVE PEOPLE FROM ACTIVE DUTY IT 100% UNLAWFUL!!!!!!!!
We need to talk. Jason need's to get in on this one.
-SMSgt
We need to talk. Jason need's to get in on this one.
-SMSgt
Ok I just looked this up. JUMPER sent me the stuff about this participation waiver. IT DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are on orders for over 31 days and are entitled to remain on AD UNTIL the final determination! This waiver bull is only for people who are not entitled to remain on AD and want to get points for a good year. PLEASE TELL ME THESE IDIOTS ARE NOT USING THIS AS THE EXCUSE TO REMOVE YOU FROM AD!
-SMSgt
You are on orders for over 31 days and are entitled to remain on AD UNTIL the final determination! This waiver bull is only for people who are not entitled to remain on AD and want to get points for a good year. PLEASE TELL ME THESE IDIOTS ARE NOT USING THIS AS THE EXCUSE TO REMOVE YOU FROM AD!
-SMSgt
I'm sorry but this really gets my blood up. If what I think is happening is happening somebody needs to be fired right away if not brought up on charges...
This is an absolute wrongful discharged case if this is happening. Anyone else know about this?
-SMSgt
This is an absolute wrongful discharged case if this is happening. Anyone else know about this?
-SMSgt
Here's how all this about a Participation Waiver came up. When I received a call from my medical ART telling me my orders are being cancelled immediately he told me he was going to try and work something out with my Commander and the medical squadron Commander to help me stay working. The next thing I hear from him by phone and email is this Participation waiver they are trying to get approved!--I have already told him(and Commander) by email I will not accept this if it means only working IDT and AT, which it does (and now I find out it's also illegal!!)---and does not apply to me.---Their game plan (if you can believe this) is to place me on this waiver and then try to get me on regular MPA mandays!--In other words, I would have to accept this waiver and then PRAY I can get MPA orders!!--HOW RIDICULOUS IS THIS?!--To be honest Senior I don't know if they are just good people that are stupid and ignorant OR just plain malicious!!